360 F1 Transmission ... Problem shifting into First

I am querying the community here to see if others have experienced the occasional problem that I am having ...

I have 2004 360 Modena with F1 transmission. Stock TCU / ECU. About 19,000 miles.

Occasionally, I experience situations when idling in neutral (e.g., stoplight), I flick the upshift paddle to select first gear ... and nada ... it remains in neutral. I make sure that my foot is firmly on the brake pedal. I release the brake pedal and re-apply again, flick the paddle ... sometimes that works, sometimes not. Would then try to select reverse, try first again, release / reapply the brake. Eventually, (not a long time) I am able to select first gear and off I go. Can be embarrassing when the Honda Civic behind me is blowing his horn (probably thinking what a ****** bag in his Ferrari)

I have verified that the F1 transmission reservoir is at the correct level, my clutch has been checked and there is indication on the SD2 that I have plenty of clutch left. The PIS level has been checked. My technician cannot duplicate the problem. He plugs in the SD2 and cannot see anything to indicate why this may occur. Using the SD2, he cycles through all the gears ... of course shifting just fine. I am sure he thinks I am mad. And, because this condition is only occasional, I cannot duplicate the symptoms on command.

Has anyone experienced similar symptoms? Does anyone have a suggestion on what I might pursue to ameliorate this? I have some concern that at some point it may become more frequent and, worse, I will be stranded somewhere with no way to get the car in gear.

Thanks,

Steve

 

I have an F430 but do not experience any similar issue. However I rarely shift into neutral at a signal. I just leave it in 1st.

Can I ask is there a reason why you shift into neutral. Do you shift into neutral as you are coming to a stop at a signal? I have tried both but I usually find myself just leaving it in gear and let the car downfhift for me all the way to first gear.

 

Sometimes I let the car decide when to down shift, but more often I will drop into 3rd gear and then coast to a stop in neutral. Why do I shift into neutral ? ... at a stop light, with the car in gear, the majority opinion is that clutch wear increases keeping it in first for the extended time. I know that there has been some debate on this topic, but the majority opinion from chatters and mechanics (e.g., my Ferrari tech) recommends that when stopped for a duration like a stoplight ... put in neutral. Short duration ... e.g., stop sign ... then keep in first. And never, ever start from a stop in 2nd gear. Am told that conservative practice such as I describe can extend clutch life significantly.

Steve

 

I think your Ferrari tech is misinformed. Putting the car into neutral is no different than leaving it in first when coming to a complete stop. In both cases, the TCU disengages the clutch and has pressure on the throw out bearing. Only if you are stopped for more than 2 minutes does it actually go into true neutral and let out the clutch. So you don't save any clutch wear by switching to neutral. Just brake normally and let the car downshift automatically to first, then you won't have a problem taking off at the stoplight.

Now, that said, you should be able to switch between N and 1 easily, so maybe get another Ferrari tech that knows the F1 better than the person you got the first opinion from?

 

I do this also, but there is no additional cutch wear by leaving it in 1st. The clutch is disengaged, so it's impossible.....however, there is more pressure on the throwout bearing from leaving it in 1st (equal to holding a clutch pedal down)(alternate argument is that these throwout bearings always have pressure on them, unlike regular 6 speed cars...but common sense says that even though they have pressure all the time, they have more when the clutch is being held disengaged), thus I'm convinced that there is additional wear for the throwout bearing to leave it in 1st for extended periods of time. There are whole long threads on this topic, I don't want to start a whole thing up again. Bottom line, the car was designed to leave it in gear and not worry about it, take that for what it's worth. In the mean time, I do the same as Steve, and put it in neutral, just to be cautious.

 

In respect to best practice ... just as if you had 3-pedal car ... one should not leave the car in gear while idling for a prolonged period (e.g., stop light). You are correct about the TCU controlling the clutch as if it were a manual. That is, the clutch is disengaged and the result is that there is pressure (and therefore wear and tear) on the throwout bearing. But, in the case of our cars, if your car is idling a tad high or the PIS is set a tad low, then there is also slippage of the clutch as it may be partially engaged. Case in point, when you first start the car from cold, if you engage 1st gear, it is likely the idle point may be high enough to reach the PIS point and the clutch may be partially engaged. Now, I realize all of the above factors are only contributory and not necessarily present in all cases ... but best practice should be followed to minimize overall wear and tear on the clutch and mechanical components associated with the clutch. So, were I you, I would shift the car into neutral when at a prolonged stop ... just as I would expect you did when you had a 3-pedal car.

Regards,

Steve

 

To the OP: I am no expert but you can't select first unless you have your foot on the brake. Maybe your brake switch needs adjustment. That would explain why it shifts fine for an SD2.

 

Hmmm, good suggestion. Maybe a faulty switch on the brake pedal is the cause. I have my foot firmly on the brake, but if the switch is not making good contact 100% of the time ??? ... seems like good place to start. Now, the question, where is that damn switch?

Regards,

Steve

 

I had a similar problem which turned out be a defective driver. The SD2 showed all was good, but I'd get these defective brake switch codes stored and shifts sometimes being wonky. I started to pay better attention and found myself fluttering the brake switch when coming off the brake and onto the gas without authority. Doing the old lazy drag from one pedal to the other.

I did a flash of my brain with new code and the problem went away.

 

Great VERY accurate post. You are correct that even when disengaged it is possible to have a little drag. When my car is cold, I actually feel a little bump when I put in in gear the first time. I would imagine that a poorly adjusted car may do that all the time.
Bottom line... Neutral when stopped for a prolonged period of time, it can't hurt and it may help.

 

To the OP: I may have a similar issue (30k miles 360 F1), although a) it's quite rare (and only when hot) and b) instead of selecting first, after a couple of tries (you can hear it trying) it goes into second, at which point I shift down into first (which always works). Do you hear the actuator trying to select a gear or does it do absolutely nothing at all?

 

London, no not seeing what you describe. I don't hear the actuator at all. I am leaning toward an intermittent problem with brake pedal position switch which wiil turn on the brake lights and allow shift out of neutral if car is stationary. If not that, then doing the logic, it might be in TCU or ECU sensor looking to see if the car is stationary or in motion. And I believe the former as I have never seen problem shifting into gear from neutral if car is in motion.

Steve

 

I don't have the F1 but I think I recall reading that the gears won't engage when the car senses the rear deck open either so that's maybe another switch to look at.

Best of luck with the issue anyway, I can understand the fear of being stranded by the thing and you know it will only happen at the most inconvenient time!

 

Yes that is true. But if rear deck or a door is open, the transmission will not only NOT shift out of neutral, but there will be both audio and visual warning indicators on dashboard. That is not the case with my car.

Steve

 

I have a 2000 360 F1 (TCU updated to the latest spec years ago by the previous owner) and occasionally it has the following problems:

a) the car will not get into 1st gear from neutral even I am stepping really hard on the brakes. Pulling the upshift paddle frantically sometimes gets me straight into 2nd gear. Other times it just stays in neutral for a few seconds.

b) In auto mode, I am slowing down for a red light and the car automatically downshifts to 3rd or 2nd. As I am rolling, the light turns green and I step on the gas and….. nothing happens. No acceleration, rev does not pick up…… It is like stepping on a dead pedal. No warning light from the dashboard. Then after 2 or 3 seconds, the car bursts back into life and gets going again.

c) Slowing down to a standstill in auto mode, normally it would downshift all the way to 1st gear. But sometimes, it stays in 2nd while the car remains stationary. Again, no warning light.


I was told that if the clutch is up, the car would jump to N by itself, especially in slow speed. But I have never experienced this before. So I hope my clutch still has some life there.

Any idea of what went wrong, please? Any advice welcome!

Many thanks in advance.

Cheers,
John

 

I agree that the most likely culprit is the brake switch, when it happens again look behind you and see if your brake lights are on, this is only going to work if you have a vehicle behind you with some kind of reflective front surface, chrome bumper or something similar. If your lights aren't on, you know it's the switch.

 

Thanks MufflerMan.

But problem b) and c) do not seem to be related to the brake switch...... ?

 

I agree. It's not.


Diagnosis of an F1 without using an SD2 is futile. Take to someone so equipped.

 

What happens if you don't use Auto Mode and slow down for a light?

 

I have similar issue with my 2000 Modena, CS TCU, 90k km on the clock ... When this happens, I can hear the actuator cycles, sounds like trying to re-shift the 1st few times.. When the car stays in inclination, it is enough to release brake pedal during this cycle and let the car roll a bit to move the gears in transmission(one inch is enough), then the gear jumps in immediately ..
Similar thing happens on my other manual cars and seems normal to me (non Ferraris). When I am unable to shift the first gear, its enough to cycle the clutch pedal and then it works - but F1 cannot do that - thus the problem - just my opinion...

 

Sorry, my suggestion was for the OP, clearly it doesn't apply to your issue.

 

I had a similar issue ... Opened up the PIS a bit problem solved

 

I ended doing a few things ...

First, the F1 pump was taking long time to prime ... like 17 seconds after opening driver door. Occasionally, the F1 light would illuminate while driving. Sometimes come on by itself and sometimes it would blink when down / up shifting.

Ended being more than one fault ...

First, I changed the F1 pump. My techs also checked the bleed valves in the actuators and made sure those were tight. Put everything back together and used the SD2 to do their magic. This made huge difference in the time to prime the system when open driver door. Now only about 8 or 9 seconds.

Second, after changing the F1 pump, still occasionally got F1 light. I changed the brake light switch. The old one looked fine, but for $40 I got new switch on advice of local tech at Scottsdale Ferrari ... this simple fix took car of the F1 light coming on for no apparent reason. The parts guy at Scottsdale Ferrari has changed so many brake light switches he knew the part number off the top of his head. The techs there say it is very common for that switch to go south when it gets to b 8+ years old.

Steve

 

a couple times a year, I will have to lift off the brake and then shift into 1st once more,
more than that something else is up.

 

Thank you for all the inputs. Very helpful.

Looks like a good start would be to replace the brake switch, and then do a SD2 test.

Steve, for the brake switch, is the part number "133555"?

http://www.eurospares.co.uk/searchResult_one.asp?S=133555&TM=1&TMo=688&TA=1&TB=40664


Thank you!