help, how does this come apart? | FerrariChat

help, how does this come apart?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Sledge4.2, Sep 20, 2014.

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  1. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

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    #1 Sledge4.2, Sep 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Probably a dumb question.

    My Jalpa is leaking at the differential where the shafts enter.

    Part 7 (oil seal) and 8 (o-ring) have both failed.

    I cant figure out how to get part 7 out (orange seal in the picture). To get it off, I need to remove the bearing but can figure out how to do that.

    Does it screw out? Part of the diagram looks like it might be threaded. If threaded, how do you get purchase on it to unscrew. If pressed it, how the hell do you unpress it as its seated in against the other side.

    Thank you.
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  2. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    You'll need to carefully remove the bearing, it's pressed in. A special mandrel will likely be necessary (it's what my lathe gets mostly used for). It is possible that the bearing won't survive. I would start by locating and pricing a new bearing before doing anything else.
     
  3. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

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    Thank you.

    I bet it will explode upon attempted removal.
     
  4. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    I think the trick will be to insert the inner race or a mandrel of the same diameter (to keep the rollers in place) and press against the rollers (without damaging the cage that surrounds them). If you're careful (and lucky) it might push right out. Heating it carefully in an oven to 250 - 300 F might help.

    Send it here and I'll give it a whirl if you don't want to.
     
  5. godabitibi

    godabitibi F1 Veteran

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    I would place the cover so the bearing face down supported by the flanges and heat the cover. The bearing should fall by itself. This is the method described in the wsm for the side bearing in the TR diff. I did it and it worked perfectly.

    What look to be screwed in the parts book is the adjusting ring for the bearing preload. That's a good thing, easier than shims!
     
  6. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

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    Like many things in my life, I am in over my head but at least having fun

    I can't get the other side out, either need to pull the suspension or the header, when I get it out I will send to you Tim, thank you.
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    That is with a great big aluminum casting with a steel race in it. A little heat goes a long ways and bearings will just fall out. A small steel housing with a steel bearing is a very different situation.
     
  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    A little hard to tell from the picture but possibly if you have a driver very close to the ID of the outer side and support the inner it will press out without damage to the bearing.

    The advice about pricing/locating a bearing first is good.
     
  9. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

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    Those cylindrical bearing are housed in a softish black plastic, I can almost pop them out, wouldn't heat destroy it?

    $125 for one side $250 for the other, from Lamborghini. Haven't done a cross reference yet

    In any case the oil seal is shot, almost crumbles so no way to avoid trying to remove the bearing....,
     
  10. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    As Brian says try to press them out with a correct sized driver. You can combine it with heat treatment (you can use a small gas torch), but be careful if the bearing roller cage is made of composite material. It might be worth considering to change those bearings anyway while you are "in there". Best regards
     
  11. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    I'd almost bet that's an SKF or other common mfg bearing. I see some numbers from the photo but not enough. Probably less than $50.00
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    If the roller cage is plastic the rollers can be popped out without hurting anything. If my prior suggestion can't work, pop out the rollers and cage then use an internal jaw puller to remove the race.
     
  13. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

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    #13 Sledge4.2, Sep 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The bearing is marked NU 211 E 1 (or I).

    I couldn't find it online (outside of lamborghini parts), but found a few with different ending designations.

    The other NU 211 E roller bearings have an inner race covering the bearings

    Looking back into the differential, did I leave behind one or two parts to the bearing on the shaft?
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  14. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    I'd start by giving SKF a call tomorrow. Looks like it's a type 1 bearing. One of their engineers should be able to identify in minutes.

    SearchResult
     
  15. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    It looks like you left behind the inner race, might be tough to get a hold of if it doesn't come out easy. Try to reach in and wiggle it out, it might not fight. It's hardened but try to avoid scratching anything if possible.
     
  16. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

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    It's not cooperating, and there isn't much room at all. Try a small puller?
     
  17. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    I think Brian's idea of popping out the individual rollers and the plastic cage --- then using a puller to remove the race is your best shot.

    However, yes, the inner race has separated (and is still stuck on the shaft in your picture). This means almost certainly that the entire bearing is not salvageable anyway (as they should not separate and cannot typically be reassembled once they have).

    That being the case, it no longer matters to need to be careful ---- just don't damage the carrier housing, but you can trash the bearing pieces in order to get them out / off if need be.
     
  18. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

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    #18 166&456, Sep 21, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
    David, no this bearing is separable, easily in fact as it is a separate race and bearing. Very similar bearings in different Getrag gearboxes.

    The race on the shaft will be quite difficult to remove I suppose, and will most likely require further dismantling of the diff. The red arrow in the picture points to the race, the blue arrow is the shaft.
    I don't think that a new bearing is needed though.
    In the first picture you can see the outer race of the bearing just behind the oil seal. It is visible where the red rubber of the seal was peeled away. That is where you need to apply pressure, while on the other side you need to support the surface of the bearing housing on the outside of the outer race. Looking at the top right picture, you see the race (very silvery) and the bearing housing (bit greyish).
    You will need to find or have fabricated pieces of metal that can do those support jobs, so you can use a press to get it all apart. The dismantling process will destroy/squeeze the oil seal in the process, but you were replacing that anyway.
    Alternatively, you can see if you can find a puller that goes in through the inside of the bearing yet can get a grip on the bearing race on the oil seal side. Then you will still need something that can support the bearing housing and allow the outer bearing race to come out of there.
     
  19. finnerty

    finnerty F1 World Champ

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    Thanks for correcting me --- I was not aware that bearing is of the "separable" type, that is a pretty old school design !

    Good news for Geno then..... as long as he can get everything apart satisfactorily.

    As you suggest, special tools / mandrels are probably required to do the job correctly and efficiently, so I may be tempted (if it were my problem) to take the shaft out of the box and bring everything in to a good machine shop to have them press / pull the bearings off --- then re-install once the new seal has been fitted. With some luck, perhaps the bearings can be reused then.
     
  20. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

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    Thank you very much everyone for the help

    That silver piece in the first picture is part of the oil seal, its a hard inner metal ring inside the rubber
     
  21. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

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    although, the silver piece which is part of the oil seal could be used to press on to get the bearing out....
     
  22. Sledge4.2

    Sledge4.2 F1 Rookie

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    I was working on the other side just now, and got the axle out of the way, removed the bolts, part 2 slid right out, but assembly 21 (housing) does not slide smoothly off/out.

    The other side, assembly 6 and 10 slide right out (but left a race on the shaft).

    I didn't pry it or coerce it at all, just wanted to check with you guys. With a little gentle force will this assembly slide off with the bearing inside like the other side? Or is it hung up on something that requires getting inside the diff?

    Obviously not a job with the engine in the car. I dont mind dropping it if I have to.
     
  23. pshoejberg

    pshoejberg Formula 3
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    #23 pshoejberg, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You are lucky to have a protruding edge of the outer bearing case to press on with a driver in order to get the bearing out. I had to produce two small stell bars and insert them above the outer bearing race to remove them from a Dino 246 differential.....even with the assembly heated up to 250 deg C the bearing race was very hard to press out.
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  24. 166&456

    166&456 Formula 3

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    Yeah the heat trick works if you have a steel bearing inside an aluminum housing, but when both items are made of the same material, heat will do little difference unless there are temperature differences induced between housing and bearing (which is nearly impossible due to the intense contact between the two).
    Provided that a new one is available and reasonable, destructive removal of the old bearing (cutting the outer race with a Dremel tool or similar) is always a (last resort) option. Very difficult to completely avoid damage to the housing in that process. Also in this example, preserving the bearing will prevent the need to replace the race on the shaft, which might be difficult to do. If the bearing is fine (no dullness, roughness or other damage) I would try to avoid replacing it.
     
  25. Mark 328

    Mark 328 Formula Junior

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    Have you tried Harbor Freight? ... they have a seal installer kit. It would be best to find a socket, piece of tube, or something to drive the seal & bearing-out. However, if nothing is available try a piece of 1/16" or so sheet metal coiled-up resting of the top of that seal. Put a steel plate on top of it and tap it out with a hammer.
    The seal is shot so I might try to put a small drift punch on that shiny part of the seal and try to tap the race out without tapping on the roller cage.
    Older GM vehicles had 2 slots cut into the rotor so that you could knock the bearing race-out of the rotor with a drift punch. If nothing else works I might try taking a die grinder and cut two slots in the housing so you could get a drift punch right onto the part of the seal that is right over the race.
     

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