A Blue and Yellow 250 GTO | Page 2 | FerrariChat

A Blue and Yellow 250 GTO

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 65 f.i., Apr 7, 2012.

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  1. Dipsomaniac

    Dipsomaniac F1 Veteran

    Mar 23, 2006
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    Derek K
    not to mention the steering wheel being on opposite sides

    yup that looks like the same car to me
     
  2. carguyjohn350

    carguyjohn350 F1 Rookie
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    LOL, an epic mess for the ages... ;)

    Certainly underscores the value of places like Fchat tho.
     
  3. technom3

    technom3 F1 World Champ
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    That was 3445
     
  4. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    #29 Terra, Apr 14, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2012
    What???

    Let me make sure I correctly understand your statement.

    You're actually positing that 3445 GT isn't "a real one" because the current Series I bodywork it wears was made in the late-1970s during Robs Lamplough's long ownership, right?

    The amount of 250 GTO Series I cars which have been either mostly or wholly rebodied during the course of their lives is well into the double digits.

    Your statement regarding 3445 GT is especially egregious considering it still retains its original chassis, motor, gearbox and rear axle. Sounds kinda real in my book.
     
  5. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran

    Dec 4, 2004
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    Jacques
    I think in todays world we have lost sight of the fact that 250 GTO's were racing cars, they got crashed, the get soaked in the rain, many had replacement panels. Today they are seen as works of art fit for display...how the times change!
     
  6. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Dave Powers
    Hi Terra,
    No. You don't correctly understand my statement. I'm not positing that at all.

    My comments were specifically addressed to those previous in this thread; that the subject of Post #1 "Looks" like a Series I GTO.

    As you are no doubt aware when you get right down to it, the Chassis is the car. That is the standard that has been arrived at over many years trial and error, Ferrari and otherwise.

    I am quite acquainted with the chassis of 3445, having visited her at Symbolic in the 90's. I never knew Mr. Lamplough personally but he collected vintage warbirds alongside Mr. Lunken from my hometown who I did know, etc., etc.

    The topic of this thread, however, is that the OP saw a car that 'appeared' to be a Series I GTO, posted it here, and opened up the discussion.

    In the interest of historical accuracy, which judging by your post is important to you, I was pointing out the Fact that of the 37 Real GTO's
    (3673 is a Superamerica originally bodied as a 250 SWB, much later rebodied in the guise of a Series I.
    4561 is a Superamerica on a longer wheelbase than GTO's, specially bodied for Ferrari board member Cavaliere in the guise of a Series I.
    *Of course these two cars are still the subject of debate among some, I'm just trying to explain where my number 37 comes from),

    3445 certainly is First or tied for First in having No original sheet metal/bodywork.

    I'm not trying to pick on the car. I would love to have her.

    But the fact remains that the body we are Looking at in this thread, that is the body on 3445, is not a Series I body banged out in Italy under the order of Enzo Ferrari in 1962 or 1963 in series with the rest of the original ones.
    It is a good copy that was made 15 years later to replace the Norinder Drogo body.

    The point of my post is that when we use a benchmark, it's important to know what the benchmark is.

    I'm sorry if my response comes across as Declarative.
    I think it was your choice of the word 'Egregious' (e·gre·gious ( -gr j s, -j - s). adj. Conspicuously bad or offensive.) in calling me out for what you thought I was saying.
    I appreciate the fact that you are certainly as interested in 'getting it right' as I am.
    History is a 7 letter word that makes (these days) millions of dollars difference in what the market will bear for 5095, 3943 etc. Versus. 3445, 4675 etc.

    Forza! and Best,
    Dave
     
  7. any_1

    any_1 Formula 3

    Sep 6, 2006
    1,072
    Sweden
    For some time Mr Norinder drove the GTO with a Drogo body that to day sits on a 250GT chassis (lots of people confuse it for a "real" GTO). What if Norinder destroyed or "lost" the original body and the car still drove around with the Drogo body. Would it still be regardet as a genuine GTO?
     
  8. BIRA

    BIRA Formula Junior

    Jun 15, 2007
    950
    I don't want to create another debate, as Oscar was writing recently this forum seem to be above all discussing reconstruction under all forms, but at ome point collectors, enthusiasts and others will have to think about the difference, in historical significance and collectibility between cars that have a different history.
    By this I mean all of them being real cars ie born as they are today (although this immediately raise the issue of modified in period and raised as such, if the bread van was a real ugly car, I am telling you, she would have been rebodied by now!).
    But there is a difference between wear and tear, serious accidents, fully or almost fully rebodied due to accident ( in period or not) , this includes a lot of GTO, SWB Comp, multiples 250LM and then cars that had a different body identity and then reverted to the original form, we have very serious cars in this cases, most of the 166MM, a Le Mans winner, a 290MM if not mistaken.
    Today it seem to me that most of collectors but not all, I have great admiration for Fred Simeone and his support or originality, put a higher premium on trace history than on originality.
    I have a different view and whenever I had cars, I chose the most original if available, vs the palmares, but from time to time to time it feels like buying a second rate Rembrand rather that the famous one which was found, half destroyed in the ruin of a bombed Berlin palace at the end of WW2 (just an image of course).
    Am I the only one to have this iew?
     
  9. retired

    retired Formula Junior

    Jul 30, 2004
    286
    #35 retired, Apr 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    here is photo of 3445 with norinder body after crash in UK in the mid 70's. car was rebodied after this crash. old body was destroyed.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. 430 scuderia

    430 scuderia Guest

    Jun 10, 2008
    813
    Beauties.....
     
  11. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    I think you meant the French industrialist Michel-Paul Cavallier.
     
  12. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    #38 Terra, Apr 15, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2012
    4675's value in relation to 250 GTOs such as 5095 and 3943, I believe, is far more attributable to the market reality that Series II coachwork is not quite as popular/sought-after vs Series I coachwork (i.e. rather than being due to 4675 having started out life as a Series I, but getting subsequently rebodied very early in-period at Ferraris's behest into a Series II, as also happened to 3413, 4091 and 4399).
     
  13. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    Yes that's correct. Thank You.
    French industrialist and Ferrari board member.
     
  14. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

    Jan 14, 2007
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    Jacques, I think that is an exaggeration. See them drift on 4 wheels at Goodwood Revival or other events. It is majestic. And yes, one day in future one will be crashed badly. That's OK in my book! Thankfully there are owners out there that still get their GTO's out, and I think they are getting to be more numerous.


    Onno
     
  15. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    I think there will always be a premium paid for Series I over Series II cars. Of course there are exceptions.
    When you look at the Series II GTO's, you can generalize and divide race histories into 2 categories; privateer with mostly hillclimbs 'hillclimbers', and cars that ran in the front ranks in some of the major international races of the day. Not to say anything negative at all about hillclimbs, just that in terms of 'value' perception people will pay more for 'name' races etc.
    When you take the Series II GTO's as a group, 4675 has been called into question for the modern state of its front end 'nose' etc.
    I mentioned it along with 3445 because; it has sold recently, and because of the nose issues etc.

    Best,
    Dave
     
  16. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    4675's nose details are currently in the process of being changed back to how they were in period.

    3445's current nose details are correct from its very early days (i.e. pre-Ulf Norinder).

    This was the point in time BEFORE it got its Blue and Yellow 'Swedish Colors' paint job.
     
  17. readplays

    readplays Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2008
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    I think we're going around and around in circles here.

    My posts in this thread have always been driven by a single point:
    I would prefer a car that has as much of its original sheet metal as possible.

    Yes, that goes for the rest of the car/its parts as well.
    For the sake of it, I will call that condition 'original'.
    I would like as original a car as possible.

    Yes, for a competition car race history is of paramount importance.
    Yes, I understand cars break while racing.
    Not discounting either of those things at all.

    I'm not sure how you introduced the subject of 3445's nose.
    My point has always been that 3445's WHOLE BODY is 15 years younger than the car. While others can debate over whether the details are 'correct' or not, I will take the position that the original bodies were hand made by a limited group of men at a certain Point in Time. Anything that does not include all those elements will be some degree of Less Original.
    I may be wrong or I may be outside the norm, as it were, but that is the clearest I can state my position.


    In case I'm not being clear, I don't care how correct the details of a later Copy appear for the purposes of comparing them to a replica.
    They're both replicas.
    The car in Post #1 of this thread is a replica.
    Ferrari 250 GTO c/n 3445GT is a real Series I GTO with a REPLICA body. Replica in the sense that it was made from scratch in the middle 1970's. I'm not interested in how good a copy it is of a real Series I body because it is that: a Copy.

    With regards to 4675, to reiterate, I chose this car to discuss because it had a clear Current Market Value via its recent Private Treaty sale on the open market AND it was Not a No Stories car, mechanically. While they may have been mild, there were some issues.
    That to me effects the value just as buying a Series I with a body made completely from scratch in the 70's is going to effect the value compared to a similar Series I without these issues.

    We may have veered just slightly off topic in our sub-discussion, Terra.
    I would be more than happy to move on, agree to disagree, or carry on this conversation privately- if any of those would work for you.

    Thank you for your points and Forza!

    Best,
    Dave
     
  18. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    Are you now saying that 4675 is NOT a 'No Stories' car mechanically?

    If that's what you're saying, how so?
     
  19. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    In Post #41, when you said the below, I mistakenly thought you were referring to something about 3445's nose:

    'When you take the Series II GTO's as a group, 4675 has been called into question for the modern state of its front end 'nose' etc.
    I mentioned it along with 3445 because; it has sold recently, and because of the nose issues etc.'
     
  20. Atombender

    Atombender Karting

    Apr 6, 2012
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    Alex
    What's wrong with 4675 mechanically?

    But yes, if we're really going that way, it has a "more" original body than 3445. It's just that rebodied 62's appear to be at the bottom of the GTO food chain (below the original 64's and original 62's). And neither the Breadvan nor the 330's nor 3809+3967 (engines?) should be allowed to be shown at GTO meetings.
     
  21. Pensive.D

    Pensive.D Rookie

    Jun 4, 2012
    1
    Back to the original question, is it real or not? The answer is yes.

    The owner is Michael Hammer, heir to the Armand Hammer fortune. He recently bought the GTO in Europe and had it flown over here to join his already impressive collection, which includes an original 427 Cobra and this amazing Bentley: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30204660@N06/3638149517/

    I live in Montecito and every Sunday morning there is a Cars & Coffee get-together on Coast Village Road. Mike doesn't always show up, but when he does, he brings something good. Yesterday it was the GTO; last week it was a really cool Dodge Challenger R/T resto-mod.
     
  22. Terra

    Terra F1 Rookie
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    And father of rising movie star Arnie Hammer.
     
  23. 65 f.i.

    65 f.i. Karting

    Feb 10, 2008
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    Is this the same car that was involved in the Cox accident?
     
  24. hhh

    hhh Karting

    Aug 19, 2004
    102
    Netherlands
    As far as I know, 3445GT had not only the body but also the chassis replaced after Robs accident. I saw the damaged chassis standing upright against the backwall at Maranello Concessionaires ready to be trown away because they build a new chassis..............
     

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