Just a thought about the newer Ferraris going to turbo engines....

I think the popularity of those particular cars have nothing to do with the engne type.

I'll be honest, if I want a time tested well engineered turbocharged car, I'm going for a Porsche Turbo. I expect different from the Italin manufacturers.

 

Anything with a manual will (at some point) increase in value. Look at six speed 360s and 430s, they're already on the way up.


Mark

 

Agreed- on Tesla no one wonders about the environmental costs of development, manufacture nor disposal of the product.

Turbo was a means to an end back then and its the same now- maybe for slightly different reasons... it will be different but it won't be the end.

 

Not really the case with the 360, as there are (thankfully) plenty of MT versions of those. But, your correct when it comes to MT versions of the 430, 599, and 612.

 

You can't compare departure from three pedals to move from NA to Turbo because last one is forced by carbon emission law.

 

You know what I mean.

Obviously no matter what product humans produce on a production line, you will be burning fossil fuels. Shoes,carpet, anything made from plastic all have some kind of oil in them. All those factory's get their power from either coal, water, or nuke.

The impact of charging the car up every night, is far less then having to change your oil over the lifetime of the car, leaking oil on to the ground, and spitting out coolant when a radiator pops.

Yes battery disposal, and the process used to build them is very toxic. But they have much better processes now to dispose of them/recycle. And only getting better. Battery tech still has along way to go however.

We are in the "Model-t" years of the electric car.

If you havn't been behined the wheel of a tesla, give it a go. They are perhaps the best car on the road. Fast, fun, and very well put together. The first time I drove one, I was giving the owner the gears. After the drive, he was the one laughing at me. It's that good. I could not believe it. And still don't!!

 

Not to mention the carbon-emissions required to extract and produce those massive lithium ion batteries. What is the environmental impact of that? I question whether the total environmental impact to produce and drive a Tesla for 10 years is better than my 360 Spider driven the same number of miles over that same period. Or my GMC Yukon! Nobody talks about that.

 

This is very true. But over the life time of said vehical as a unit, the impact is I believe much smaller then the Yukon, or the 360.

The car as we know it, is not under any circumstances an environmentally friendly product. Just the fluids alone, that leak, require changing, and disposed of make the tesla far more environmentally friendly out of the gate. The biggest issue is the battery. Not the buck a day it costs to charge.

 

What he said. And over in Porsche-land, 930s are hot right now.

Latest numbers from FML showing asking price change over six months - maybe the three-pedal manuals are doing better (which would explain why the paddle-only models continue to sink).
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I didnt mentioned Apple without a reason

Very well said. That was my point too, but you expanded explanation very nicely!

 

I think you meant 24,000

 

Maybe some day but not now. Currently the enviro impact of electric cars is very high.

 

That's my impression from watching the market. 360 Modena six speed is my dream car, so I kind of keep an eye on them.

Obviously my observational theory may be wrong if the statistics shows otherwise.


Mark

 

Those numbers are very opptomistic to say the least.

 

And I see they now come with a very large supply of enviro friendly cool aid!

 

Nope, 16,000 360s and 18,000 430s

 

Any idea how many 458 models have been produced so far?

 

Ferrari with supercharged V8 would sound great
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiWJNFdiw6U

 

Never say never but.

The modern cars are tech heavy, that means maintance costs are a big factor as they depreciate. For sure some enterprising independants will figure out how to keep these machines running, but at a cost.

Look at Ghibli prices, they were low low low for decades because they costa fortune to keep running and their purchase price slipped to a level where running cots vs price was at the wrong end of the curve.

More recently we see this with 355's which are still a relatively simple car.

Now lets look at 360's and 430's. As a numbe rof people here have pointed out 10+ year old ferraris tend to sell to enthusiasts, and they prefer sticks, valuing the experience over paper performance. A 430 stick is probably the last reasoanble one to buy. The chain driven cams means mantanance avoids cambelt changes and you have a stick, similar with a 360 stick as cambelts easy to do but still a cost.

Everyone else will go either for a full classic or the latest.

My guess is as TR prices move over 100k the enthusiasts looking for a reasonably priced ferrari will look at 355-430 stick cars. That is a pretty small production base. So maybe in 5 or so years these are 70-90K cars if in great shape. Now they may stay there for a decade or so and then spike up as being the last of the "true" ferraris or tha last with the true ferrari spirit etc etc.


Or we may see the turbo ferrairs being significantly lighter than the current cars, and ferrari makign a raw machine again for those who want it. One thing about turbo motors is that they produce power lover in the rev range and therefore lend themselvs to a stick more readily than the latest cars, which have a relatively narrow high rev powerband best suited to multiples of gears and fast shifts.

For me of the moderns a 550 is a great buy, fully dpereciated and we will not see its likes again. A 355 seems like a great drive probably one of the best, but can easly absorb 20-30 to put right. 360 or 430 stick seem like great cars to have although the 430 needs to depreciate more. While I dont love paddle the 430 scud is supposed to be a great steer and quite relaible, still at 180K I would wait 5 years for them to come down into the 120's before buying.

Whatever you think you can buy a car for, pay a lot of attention to what it will cost to keep for 10 or so years, add that number to the purchase price and then figure what it will be worth 10 years out. From my experience unless you are doing your own work figure an average of 5k per year.

A rule of thumb also seems to be that a car does not get to appreciate untill the model is 25 or more years old, assuming it will appreciate.

Still yeah maybe, a NA stick 430 will be sucha rare bird 5-10 years from now it will apreciate sooner.

 

The issue with the MT is relatively simple: Virtually all purchasers of NEW Ferraris either do not prefer or simply cannot operate a MT. Even when Ferrari offered it with the 430 / 599 / 612 series, very few ordered the MT. We all know that overall driving IQ has taken a nose dive the last 20 years or so.

The used market is a different story. Plenty of upper-middleclass enthusiast that, while not able to afford a new Ferrari, can afford a used one. Unfortunately these enthusiasts have to fight over the few MT cars left.

In fairness, I must point out that on the track, the paddle shifters are a must. I've raced in a 355 MT and F1 back-to-back, and can definitely tell you that F1 does a better job with half the effort.

Since Ferrari has completely discontinued MT production, this will only continue to drive up the prices (unfairly) of older cars - even those most of us would not consider great cars.

 

Unfairly???

 

I'm not a prospector - I'm an enthusiast who would prefer to see these cars driven - not sitting in a temperature controlled environment by someone who cares only for its potential future monetary worth.

I would much rather see them either deprecate slightly or just hold their value, so that many others can enjoy and appreciate the Ferrari experience. Most of the Enzo-era cars are currently way over-priced, IMO.

I just hope Ferrari eventually recognizes this and starts offering MT again.

 

But 10-20 years from now those same middle aged, upper-middle class buyers will not have the same affection for a MT. They will probably view it as an outdated relic like carbed engines. The number of buyers who desire these features will fall every year.

Most middle-aged car lovers like me learned to drive on MTs and grew up driving them, which means have an emotional connection to a 3-pedal and, more importantly, actually *know* how to drive them. The same cannot be said of kids today who will become the middle-aged enthusiasts buying "classic" 360s and 430s in 10-20 years.

 

Without the need of fuel?

Amazing. They're gonna sell millions.

 

They just require electrons.