488 GTB (458 replacement)

Panamera Turbo sounds good compared to what? Compared to Cayenne turbo, maybe.

 

no scream
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsKHtMqBA_M]ferrari california T - YouTube[/ame]

 

The reason why the F1 cars dun sound good is due to the 15k rev limit, which is in turn limited by the ridiculous fuel flow limit.

 

Ugly as ever

 

They don't even reach 15K RPM. Even if they did rev to 20,000 though, they wouldn't sound much better, as the turbocharger takes all the energy out of the exhaust.

 

No, what I'm trying to say is that a turbocharged engine doesn't always have to sound as muffled as a 911 turbo; it can actually sound nice and with a pronounced roar. Imagine what ferrari can do to their engine.

 

Indeed, turbos always take a chunk out of natural engine noise.F1 is rarely over 12k rpm today, IIRC the engine develops max power at 10-11k rpm depending on the set up.

 

Don't forget that the engine redline is only 7500 RPM, not 9000. We will see if Ferrari can keep that high RPM peak in the 458 replacement. The Cali T may give a hint of what they will do. The boost profile is actually pretty complicated. In the lower gears the boost is pulled back so you get the exhaust noise, the response, and the pull to high RPM... at least to 7500. In 6th and 7th gear I am told by a knowledgeable technical Ferrari authority that the Cali T is programmed to produce 700 ft-lb of torque (listed peak torque is 556 ft-lb) in the mid range. This is real stump puller torque from a 3.9 liter V8. It falls off at high RPM but this accounts for the sense that the car definitely feels like a turbo in the higher gears. Because the boost is high you don't get the nice exhaust noise in the higher gears, but with this kind of torque you may not even need to downshift to pass.

 

higher RPM does not help , Mclaren 650S have redline at 8500

 

I mean it's the high RPM that is necessary (but not sufficient) to give the high pitched scream. And the McLaren doesn't have it even though it revs to 8500. It's really a mid range torque beast: 3000-7000 RPM. Above that it is falling off all the time. I think the 8500 is just marketing. It is useless to run it up there; you might as well shift. On the other hand the 458 peak horsepower is at redline:9000 RPM. That makes it interesting.

 

Even F1 cars (the engine is built only for racing purpose) that rev over 10k rpm sound like sit, let alone a normal car (built for durability, economy, environment, blah blah blah) that rev to 9k rpm max.
Just look at Pagani, the Zonda sounds like a race car, suddenly the Huayra sounds like a muscle car.
And if we look at Cali T having highest rev lower than Cali 30, the 458's successor (Cali T with extra boost) will definitely rev lower than 9k rpm. The best magic Ferrari could do is to program the turbo not to boost during lower rpm, so the vacuum sound won't come out when you rev the car. But when driven at high rpm, it would be a beautiful 911 turbo.

 

I was just wondering what if the new turbo replacement was designed to retain a true NA sound by actually bypassing the turbocharger under certain situations similar to the present exhaust valves?

Not just adjusting the boost like on the Cal-T but actually pushing exhaust around the scrolls. It seems that Ferrari is well aware of the concern over the sound of the 458 replacement (just read the posts here) and really would lose customers if the sound was not there in their mid-engine sports car.

If they did a combination of clever boost adjusting like the Cal-T and added partial to total turbo bypass on demand then they would retain the sound we love, keep the emissions down for the greenies, and hugely increase torque and HP numbers. Drive it hard and you get the sound. Drive it easy and it would be relatively quiet and lower emissions. It would be hard to design (engine ECUs design would be very challenging) but not impossible I would think. I bet you could even design it to operate without a mechanical valve but rather one based on a venturi principle. Gases with higher velocities would use pressure differentials to drag the flow to a path around the turbos. I've seen this in fluid based systems.

I still wouldn't buy one as I've seen the videos of turbo's glowing orange to white hot while spinning like a Dremel tool. Don't even want to think about the eventual replacement cost. That and there's nothing on earth like the NA V12.

Which leads me to another thought. Ferrari should just put an NA V10 in their mid-engine offering. Simple displacement increase and no competition for the premier F12. Huge sound, huge revs and huge performance. Maybe just offer it as a US option if EU market is not there due to the global warmers and displacement taxes. Well, I guess given the current financial situation Ferrari finds itself in, a V10 would never happen.

Just some crazy thoughts late at night - or are they?

 

What is the latest on the debut date?

Obviously Paris and LA auto show didn't happen.

 

geneva march 2015 confirmed (so far::))
peter

 

I think we can expect some variant of the approach we see in cali T. Retard the boost in the lower gears to give good exhaust noise and response, and torque to high RPM Give full boost in the higher gears for maximum torque. The question is whether we will still get the 9000 RPM peak hp in the lower gears; I doubt it but we will see.

More displacement means less economy and more emissions, whatever the cylinder count. But note that Lambo still has the 5.2L V10.

The V12s are indeed otherworldly.

 

How many of existing 458 owners are looking to trade up just out of interest to the new 458 TT ?

 

Not the first two years of production but maybe after that

 

It will be like 650k euro with taxes,second hand 458 is 300-350 euro.It will not worth it

 

Does anyone know if this "refresh" will be a Pininfarina styling or in-house? If it's in-house, I guess that leaves no Pininfarina cars anymore for Ferrari production car models.

 

AFAIK Ferrari Centro Stile

 

I am getting very interesting hints from various sources

Seems that some competitors are impatiently waiting Ferrari to release 458M so they can hear the sound. If the sound gets similar treatment like on California, we could see VERY SOON mid-engine NA V8 hybrid from one big player from Germany That model is in consideration for quite some time, but whole process will be pushed to maximum if they observe they have empty space that was filled with screaming Ferrari.

 

So you're tell me the Porsche 458 competitor is waiting on Ferrari?

I don't see how it will be any different from the California T they'll sound the same.

 

mercedes?

 

Porsche 960?

 

There were rumours about Porsche. But ...
porsche will never be a ferrari. Never replace any 'gap' here.