Reformed On Car Control Nannies

Interesting you should say that. I don't think I'm a fast racer but like to race and do so often. I have never had a pro lesson so have every bad habit in the book. I have heard people say I should be threshold braking all the time. That means ABS is activated to me. But I am convinced I am not faster into the ABS and I rarely let the ABS do its thing. I'm fastest when the chassis is well balanced and I use the brakes progressively and hard with lots of really good pedal feedback, trailing off and not using the brakes as a light switch. I want my chassis to sit down under braking not tip on its nose with big weight transfer of a brake pad with high initial bite or brake pedal matted into ABS.

I'm ambivalent to ABS, because I don't use it (but have it) in streetcar nor racecars. On track when you loose the car and go 2 feet in, ABS will unpredictably attempt to regain traction and put you on an unpredictable trajectory. ABS cost me the back end of my car once because of that. Without ABS is safer on track IMO because you go 2 feet in and you fly off the track in a nice predictable straight.

The second problem with street based ABS is the dreaded "ice mode" that can confuse ABS on dry pavement. That cost one of us Vette racers a brand new C6 in one of the LBGP support races a few years back while each of us has our own story of mid-race ABS failure with less poor outcome. All of us vette guys still have ABS and most have dash switches to turn it off if is gets funky mid-race which they do on occasion.

 

http://www.racer.com/more/racer-magazine-excerpts/item/110530-antilock-unlocked-brake-away

 

I've raced single seat F3 cars with no ABS and F Challenge with full time ABS. Into a "hard" braking zone I use the brake as a "on-switch" HARD, HARD, HARD (violently hard!). Then gently off. It is much easier and faster if you have ABS. In the FC car if the brakes are not glowing bright red (and I'm talking about a T11 or T12 at COTA) then you are not braking hard enough. No easing into the brake zone.

 

I am surprised at that considering your backround. Light switch (violently hard) braking would imply upsetting your chassis. If your chassis was that good under corner entry I would think your set-up sacrifices on corner exit. I'm of the shcool that set-ups for exit speed and works backward. I have never had a car even Ferraris that were equally good on entry as exit. But I am only an underfunded lowly mid-pack SCCA racer who turns his own wrenches. Maybe that's my problem slow in fast out instead of fast in fast out.

 

Try "fast in, fast out"

Have you ever been to a F1 race? They do not progressively apply brake on a "hard brake corner".

 

The problem with F3 type is there is hi downforce in the beginning and the you must gradually take pressure off the brakes before you smoke the tires. NOT easy, at least for me.

 

I have re read this thread (yes I'm bored) and I think it's worth mentioning that abs programmed for a race car, and race compound tires, is a different animal than street abs. When I'm saying its a lot easier with abs I am assuming a race set up and not a car that goes into ice mode. I know that might seem obvious, but erasing some of the comments I'm not sure that has been made clear.

 

Interesting you should mention that. The 430 Scuderia uses the same ABS computer as the 430 challenge. Of course, the control of the system can be adjusted via the manettino.

I don't feel the MDM (BMW) or RACE mode in the Scud intervene much, if at all, when I'm on line and fast. When I overdrive the car/tires, or take the wrong line, then it can become more intrusive.

Still a nice safety net, and both systems allow a fair amount of drift angle before intervening. They can mask poor driving though for newer drivers which can develop poor habits. Can't solve everything ; )

 

like engine mapping can be configured to one's driving or track, the nannies need to be fine tuned to one's driving as well... It is a matter of getting in sync with the engineer's choice or adjust the mapping to suit. Not all of us respond or have the same perception of when things should happen. The nannie's programs are not cast in stone and can be adjusted from how they come out of the box. Out of the box the manufacturers give us a couple of switches and hope we will like their choices. The systems work quite well for the masses, if one is accomplished enough to detect areas of improvement make the necessary changes to suit.

 

My two experiences with nanies were on the e46 M3 and the elise. On the M3 at the BMW track we went on a wet skidpad floored it and the nanny intervened repetitively dialing back power so we could complete circle even witht he foot flat in the wet. Turning off the nanny and holding the tail out through the skidpad was faster and more fun but took skill. The nany is great for the unexpected on the street if you are tired.

On the track the nanny made the car significantly slower, whenever you wanted to rotate the rear slightly at the limit the nanny intervened beforre you got there.

On the Lotus the nanny seems to cut cuts power on tight corners such that you bog down, on faster corners I cant feel it, but laptime indicate a slower speed. Turnign off the nany makes the car feel more alive in all types of subtle and not so subtle ways.

If Its the begining of the season or a new track I leave the nany on for the first hour or so, its slower for sure but a nanny when you are rusty is no bad thing.

Point about nannies to me is that on track we like to dance towards the edge or around it, reorientating the car according to a mititude of subtle inputs from our brain inner ear etc, that is where speed comes from, a blanced car just below the edge or contraolably past it. Nannies move the edge closer down, and create mush so you loose communication, itsa blunted experience.

To the extent that there is always going to be a faster car and a faster driver, the track thing is about entertainment and honing skills, openign and running more brain synapses, not just showing numbers. Youa re going to learn more, and drive better(skills wise) in a car witha well devloped chasis and good responses without nannies or too many nannies. I guess it earnign your speed and workign for it.

Now a number of modern street cars have what I term suspect chassis dynamics particulariuly at the edge, in these cars nannies mask flaws of machine and driver.

We can debate PDK all day long and maybe its a grey area. But at some point with all the electronics the driver becomes a passenger meerly dialing in steering and maybe applying brakes. Take the new Z06 as an example. With autobox from what I read comming off the apex you just floor it and let the computer decide how much power to apply. Probabblya lot fatser, but what is the point. I bet in a year or two we will have a fully self drive car with a track map, the driver can decide hgow much power to add, but the car wont let you add too much for any given situation same with braking. Except for steering many moderns are already at this point.

Now its not to say nannies are terrible or have no use on track, some apprently are seamless and intervenve only after a certain amount of slip etc is detected. in that case they make the dynamics at the edge or past the edge more benine without diluting the essential feedbak. Seems like some ferrari systems do this as does maybe the z28. Tech can add to the experience or it can dilute it, tech can also remove the skills neceesary thereby putting into question what the actual experience is. Many moderns drive experience from sheer velocity the rest is tuned and damped out.

I remmebr getting back into the track and going out in a MX5 cup car. I thought I was drivign the car on the limit, slightly loosing the rear end on certain corners and catching it with quicj subtle steering inputs, you know the limits of adhesion, or so I thought. Then I went out with someone who really knew what they were doing, they were one gear up on me in each corner and hugely faster.

The explanation was that while I thought a MX5 had no power and was consequently burying the throttle out of bends, my lack of finesse was even with only 160hp upsettign the balance of the car. Now I wonder how driving a car with the best nanies you would ever learn this.

Maybe nannies make very powerful cars manegable, and maybe the answer is to be able to progessively dial them back as your skill grows. Or maybe we are at the point where some people care most about laptimes and paper speed, and others emphasise skill development and the total experience even at the expense of speed.

 

Interesting discussion on nannies. I've raced an abs equipped 996 cup for a while now in PCA, and I was told that the 997.1 cups did not get abs because one (or more?) of the sanctioning bodies did not allow it. Similar to how Grand Am 996 cups had to run 5 lug wheels instead of centerlocks.

David

 

Vince,

That happens because the rears are used to control yaw and manage weight transfer. If drivers drive to the nannies limit that would not occur. The nanny saving them all the time is indicative of worn rear brakes. Nannies off those guys would be in the dirt. No accomplished driver is faster with nannies On.

 

You can also *supposedly* overheat the e-diff in the Scud if you make the nannies work too hard. At least one user reported that I believe. Makes sense I suppose.

Anytime I have an instructor, we always chat about my experience, ability etc. The good ones always ask what nannies I have on and what they control.

It's amazing though what garners praise these days. There is a video of a guy driving an M3 GTS on the Nurburgring and crushing the nannies. Everyone that saw it on the BMW board, more or less, was like "WOW AWESOME DRIVING". He is on the throttle seconds early in every turn and just let's the nanny figure it out. It's amazing the car can do that. It's kind of amazing that he's learned to do that. But it strikes me as terrifying LOL. I would ask to be let out in the woods.

 

That is how they now teach driving at M school, and how they advise fastest lap times in new vettes, flatten the pedal and let the computer figure out how much power to add.

As to wearing out brakes, heating up e diff etc, it points to a number of issues with modern cars laptimes, these are fastest possible laptimes, great for anoraks and bvragginmg rights. A more inportant metric is fastest consistent laptime, ie lap 10 and lap 20.

Its very different engineering a car for a single blistering lap, and building one that is strong lap after lap. To the extent DE events are growing and those that "use" their sportscars do so at a track, fastest laptime is a dead end, fastest consistent laptime is a far better way to compare cars.

Fastest single laptime is paper spec, Paper spec sells cars for those who sreet drive/brag their cars, its probably a significant percenhtage of sales. The downside is car engineered this way can be prohibitively expensive to track, not very duarble and lack driver involvement.

 

Yikes. I'm literally in an airport on my way to 2day m school. Sounds like there will be some philosophical discussions ; ) At least they still teach the skid pad, drifting, etc sans nannies. I'll make sure to ask about advance m school as well.

Agreed on the paper laps and your thoughts there.

 

I've only used anti-skid so I dont know about the newest "nannies". BTW, on the 458CH there are settings for 1,2, and off. 1 is mostly used to reduce real wheel spin. 2 for rain (again only rear wheel spin). Off is used to lay black rubber and hopefully you don't burn up the tires before the checker!

 

Lots of opinions here, interesting discussion. For me the answer comes down to, what would F1 do if allowed. Traction control? Yep, most certainly, Schumacher accused of winning his first title with it hidden. ABS, don't remember hearing that discussed , but I bet it would be in if allowed. Two things to consider, 1-fastest possible lap time might require a driver to adjust style, Vettle vs.webber with higher mid corner downforce from blown exhaust. 2- the ability of every engineering group and company will differ, as do the goals of their system. Typical road car systems are not meant to minimally intervene for race purposes, racing applications would do as little intervention as possible. Thoughts?

 

FYI. M school absolutely does NOT teach what was stated above about mashing the gas and letting the computer figure it out. Furthermore, the new MDM mode lets you get massively out of shape.

The instructors here have incredible resumes. They don't teach incorrect technique.

 

Did I misquote. In 2005 M school taught that the fastest(not necessarily best) way out of a bend is to let the computer sort it out. A recent article on the vette said that the auto is fastest around a track and to flatten the pedal and let the computer sort it out.(will fimnd vette quote)

Undoubtably traction/stability control if tuned for a race car and a specific tack/lap will make a driver faster, thats why it was in F1 and then banned.

Yes some new cars now allow you to get a certain amount out of shape. I think I had said so in an earlier post, referncing the Z28. I know on some Loti and other cars you can dial in the degree of traction stability control slowly upping the ante.

Another poster here had alink to a video of a fastest lap in a new M3 letting the computer sort it out, which may well be true..

None of which means that if you own a m3/4 you cant learn proper techniqe or a late intervention trac system does not let you hang the edge out. But yes maybe they dont teach fastest lap system derived in M school anymore.

BTW do you have the new M3/4 is it stick or paddle, did you try otehr Mcars at M school.

 

It's a nice comparison. While similar, they're two very different applications. In a race scenario you're not really thinking about longevity of maintenance items that you would on a road car.
Interesting about the M driving school. 2005 was a ways ago. When was the SMG introduced? 2002?

 

I have a 2009 e92 M3 - 6 speed.

I drove the new M3, M4, and M5. They were all amazing honestly. They don't really feel turbocharged to me. They have a lot of torque...very easy to break traction anywhere, and I actually found myself short-shifting at certain points to maintain stability. They still rev past 7k... The M5 is a big car, but it drives like one much smaller. The engine is amazing.

The new carbon brakes are sensational. I went max attack for 20 mins in both the M5 and M3 without any degradation in performance. Feel is excellent. I was really impressed. All their cars are currently DCT; but I saw a bunch of M235i's there which may have been 6-speeds; not sure.

I absolutely could not tell that the steering in the M3/M4 is electric and not hydraulic. Amazing feel.

Some of the cars had conti's on them which sucked compared to the MPSS on others...that was one variable that limited some of the performance of the cars. I hear Conti is working on a more direct MPSS competitor.

They never mentioned the computer being fastest this weekend in 2015 ; ) They were correcting people anytime they saw/heard MDM cut-in. They said they could actually hear it at certain points on the track outside the car observing. No driving was done with full DSC on; and various exercises were done with no TC of any kind.

I was really surprised how technical parts of the track were, and found myself working hard to keep getting faster. They did a nice job re-creating a lot of common elements found on many racetracks throughout the world on a smaller scale.

They (BMW corporate) have a car that can drift itself, and one that can park itself, so if you tell me that they can design a TC system to do the same with the help of a human, I totally believe it. I'm not an F1 expert, but that was my understanding as well regarding banning it.

I never tried what you are talking about. I did get on the throttle a number of times too soon, as we all do sometimes, and did find the system predictable. In fact, I would say it is a huge leap forward from the MDM system in my 2008 build date car. Impressive progress.

The instructors warned repeatedly about the M5. I understand you can still spin it with MDM on. There were at least 2 offs during the open lapping; also with MDM and ABS. I guess both required driver correction based on what I heard on the radio - praise for saving it; followed by concern and advise ; )

Doing advanced M school at VIR in April; can't wait!

 

Short-shifting, fast-in, fast-out, YES,......Electric steering, traction/stability control, ABS, Turbocharged, Computer, carbon brakes, not so much.