MASSA DOESN'T SUCK

Ditto

 

Neither to me, that's why to me and many others Felipe is the rightful champion of the 2008 season....and you are absolutly correct, to alow a race that was a proven farse to decide a world title is the biggest farse of all, and the biggest shame f.1 ever faced.

 

Obviously you were watching a different race to me ...maybe on the moon, who knows, I give up, think what you like.

This tells me all I need to know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K9P9z_Lwa0

 

May I ask what exactly was the controversy? Started following F1 in 2010. On the video linked above, Hamilton cut a curve, was passed by Kimi, and he retook the lead in the next corner (was he supposed to stay behind 'x' distance? Otherwise don't see much controversy there), and Kimi crashed on the next lap. What else should I know? Where was Felipe, and how many points he was ahead at the beginning of the race? Would have preferred a million times Felipe winning the WDC, but want to understand exactly what happened (never did). Thanks.

 

It´s pretty easy, as you can see in the footage, Hamilton decided to pass Kimi in the chicane, and since he couldn´t (because obviously kimi didn't park the car to let him trough, he decided to cut across and in this way he overtook the Ferrari.. In the straight, he took his foot off the gas and let Kimi rettok the lead, then caught his slipstreem and overtook him again at the next corner. Steve believes he did nothing wrong since he gave the position back, but that is not the problem. I, and the marshals at the track, believe hamilton gained an advantage for cuting the chicane, had hamilton not cut the chicane, and made the corner behind kimi he would never had the chance to catch his slipstream and overtake him, he could only do it because by cuting the chicane he was able to accelarate much faster and outdrive Kimi, than, he simply took his foot of the gas a litle in order to let kimi by but, imidiatly folowed him.
He was penalized because he held an advantage by cuting a chicane, sure he gave the position back, but he still was in a position to retake the place from kimi. Without cuting it he would never had the chance to catch Kimi and overtake him in that straight. This his way he was penalized and rightfully so. Felipe was some 5sec behind both of them.
Hamilton cutting the chicane was not an evasive action, rather a premeditated one, just like he had done the previous year in Monza, when he was smoked at the start by massa, and than in the first chicane he deliberatly forced contact with the Ferrari in order to cut across the chicane and overtake Felipe...nobody penalised him that day and the smart ass believed he could pull the same move again...

 

Exactly right. It's just easier for the lewis fanbois to call it a conspiracy!!

 

Wrong. The reason Hamilton was penalized was because under the rules, he should have waited a minimum of 2 corners before over taking Kimi again. Please read the rules before posting this sort of incorrect analysis.

 

Exactly.

 

That's interesting too...I didn't know that, but furoni is still correct that lewis had an advantage being in the slipstream that he otherwise wouldn't have been in.

 

Ignore button is your friend Steve, especially when it comes to a certain poster that thought that Alonso was second rate to Massa on the same team and Lewis lucked into it.

 

Nice try, but there was no such rule! The only rule in existence at Spa 2008 was that if you overtook by going off track, you had to give the position back. Period - there was nothing about waiting one or two corners. I guarantee that. Charlie Whiting, during the race, verbally OK'd to McLaren that Hamilton had done enough to correct for the off track overtake by slowing and letting Kimi by.

What did happen, though, was that Max Mosley had his lap dog, aka chief steward Allan Donnelly, instruct the race stewards to penalize Hamilton, and later the FIA invented/introduced a new rule requiring a driver to wait until after the following corner before attempting to overtake again. That rule does exist now - it did NOT exist during the Spa 2008 race, and was only introduced after the fact by the FIA to justify penalizing Hamilton.

Further, as to a slipstreaming advantage from being so close - utter nonsense. Other rabid tifosi accused Hamilton of still having too much momentum, as if somehow Hamilton was able to disobey the laws of physics - those rabid tifosi apparently don't understand physics and momentum. Since Kimi passed Hamilton, Kimi was travelling faster, thus Kimi had greater momentum. Very simple physics.

So how was Hamilton able to re-pass Kimi so easily after giving back the position? Very simple - at that point, Kimi's intermediate tires were older, more worn, and falling off the cliff (losing grip/traction) - Kimi lost 4 or 5 seconds on the prior lap to Hamilton. Hamilton's car simply had much greater grip, and he had more traction to accelerate down the straight. The slipstream was not remotely a factor. Add in the McLaren's much greater available traction for braking, and it was inevitable that Hamilton would pass Kimi within one or two corners anyway. That's why Kimi crashed later that lap - because his tires were completely gone.

Watch the video linked a few posts up - notice how Kimi's car is weaving under acceleration out of the chicane - no traction. Notice how coming out of the following hairpin, where Hamilton overtook, that Hamilton is able to pull away by several car lengths in just a few hundred meters - what slipstream was he using there to be faster than Kimi, slipstream advocates? None, it was his much greater traction... the same traction that allowed him to accelerate more than Kimi after giving back the place.

I am astounded how normally rational (well, usually rational - for some here, that never applies ) F1 fans completely ignore normal physics and facts to justify an impression - Spa was clear, in that Hamilton did fully comply with the regulations in place at that race in returning the position to Kimi, that there was no advantage gained from cutting that chicane that made a subsequent pass any easier (it was all due to the relative traction/tires of the two cars at that point), and that it was the FIA that cheated by inventing a new rule and applying it retroactively. The FIA's Donnelly and Mosley completely ignored the ruling of Race Director Whiting and all the other race stewards, and let Mosley phone in a penalty. Shameful and pathetic. The marshals did NOT agree that Hamilton had not fairly returned the position, since Whiting ruled that Hamilton was OK. McLaren was ready to have Hamilton let Kimi past again if the FIA so ruled, but Race Director Whiting specifically advised that no further corrective action was needed.

PS - if you really want to look for rules that were not enforced by the FIA, watch the START of Spa 2008, where Kimi (starting 3rd, running 4th into T1) went all four wheels waaaay over the line (like two or three car widths over) after Turn 1 to overtake two cars while off track - exactly what Hamilton was accused of doing and where he did legally return the position to Kimi; but Kimi never got touched by the marshals for his illegal overtaking.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiD3el8sqgs[/ame]

 

oh well...that's your theory.

I do, however, agree that it was only a matter of time before lewis overtook again, no matter what.

 

It's not a theory - it's what the rules actually stated and required at the time. Ask Charlie Whiting if it was just a theory. Physics are not theory, they are laws - which the tires and aerodynamics were fully obeying. No magic slipstream, just simple physics.

Oh, and in Spa 2008 - Massa sucked, relative to Kimi and Hamilton. He was trundling around safely, several seconds off the pace per lap because it was wet, and... well... Massa sucks in the wet. Sorry.

 

Not that bit of the theory.....there is no doubt that lewis let kimi past, but was straight into his slipstream, where he otherwise wouldn't have been AT THAT TIME.....but he would have been very soon regardless. So, it's a pity he didn't wait, but 20/20 hindsight is easy to use.

 

Don't let facts get in the way tho, eh.....do carry on.

 

Doesn't matter - aside from the FACT that a slipstream out of the chicane is irrelevant because the cars aren't moving fast enough to make a significant difference down the start straight, the RULES said absolutely nothing about that move not being permitted.

At the time of that race, Hamilton's return of position was fully compliant with every regulation in existence, whether he was closer or not. The slipstream argument is simply NOT a valid argument from the standpoint of the rules in place governing that race. Hindsight not needed, unless one anticipated that Mosley would make up a new retroactive rule to change the legitimate race result...

 

I know Tony I know...I but like taking the hiss ..

It's getting boring tho it's too easy, I'll admit..that

 

fair enough.

So what you're saying is that Lewis had an unfair advantage by giving back the position in the way he did whilst keeping a slipstream, but because it wasn't specifically covered in the rules, he shouldn't have been penalised.

I can accept that.

 

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the slipstream was irrelevent in his subsequent overtake of Kimi, not a factor at all in that pass, thus how close he was to Kimi after returning the position didn't make a difference.

I'm saying that Kimi's tires were dead, Hamilton's weren't, that Hamilton could accelerate much quicker than Kimi, that Hamilton could brake much later than Kimi, and between those factors they explain how Hamilton just drove around Kimi on the start straight after returning the position. Nothing to do with slipstream, all to do with traction.

Look again at the video as Kimi accelerated out of the chicane - the back of the car was jumping out, he had zero grip, meanwhile Hamilton just accelerated without a wiggle. Look at Kimi as he accelerated out of the hairpin, now behind Hamilton. Kimi's car wiggles around with no traction, Hamilton just pulls away. Look how Hamilton immediately pulled several car lengths away out of the hairpin - yet he had no slipstream from Kimi. It was all traction and grip. Normally, when Hamilton slowed to let Kimi get the position back, Kimi's greater speed would have meant that Hamilton would not have been able to catch him, even with a slipstream, given equal traction. They did not have equal traction.

Everybody blaming the slipstream for Hamilton being able to overtake is ignoring the huge differences in grip/traction between the driver's tires at that point in the race. Kimi crashed on that next lap, because the tires were dead and gone. Not Hamilton's fault, not the fault of being close behind out of the chicane.

 

No doubt about that.

Gordon C, excellent post.

 

Oh well...I don't agree. That's fine though.

It's ancient history anyway.

 

^^^ Totally agree that Kimi was a sitting duck regardless of when Hamilton over took him. He was going to get passed due to finished tires.

 

Don't worry I'll remind you, I know the feeling when something fixes itself so intensely inside your head, the wish to forget it is, to say the least > very hard...

 

Haha yer know it T, yes Gordon is one of the brighter posters on here...

 

lol....what??