F12 GTO?

How does any of this make the 599GTO, a real GTO? Which race series was it homologated for? It is a hardcore version of the 599 with some things based on the 599XX, which is not an FIA approved race car either. How does that differ from a 360CS or 458 Speciale? The 288GTO and 250GTO were developed and homologated for racing, and thus are real GTO's. Like 599GTO owners saying that the F12 can't be called GTO, you can be pretty sure than a lot of enthusiasts and owners of 288's and 250's don't think the 599GTO deserves that name any more than the F12. Just for the record, I don't mind the 599 being called GTO, but I for one, don't consider it a true GTO, and I think a hardcore F12 can be just as deserving of that moniker as the 599.

 

What ever they call it I'm getting one

 

DK308,

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with just about everything you said. Actually, the F12 can not and will not be called a GTO. As you accurately pointed out, only the 250 GTO was really a homologated car that was actually raced. The 288GTO racing series never materialized. The 288GTO was also apparently bashed for several years when it first came out as it was not a "real" GTO that was raced. The Ferrari chieftains decided that the 21st century iteration of the GTO could and would be based on a car that was a track only car, specifically the 599XX. The 599GTO is a street legal 599XX. Thats the bottom line. The F12 can and probably will be morphed into a "hardercore" version such as the HGTE. However, the F12 will never bear the GTO moniker. Not now not ever. The only way an F12 would "deserve" the GTO badge is if the Ferrari chieftains say so and with no F12 XX ever being produced I think F12 owners are SOL if they fantasize about an F12 GTO. Despite straight line drag racing dominance and a Fiorano lap time thats a half second faster, the F12 will never be in the same league as the 599GTO. IMHO the F12 is simply much easier to drive and hence less challenging. I'd also venture to say that the raw, visceral demeanor of the 599GTO is completing lacking in the F12. Finally, the 599GTO is the best sounding Ferrari ever made. Again, just my opinion. When I bought my GTO in July, I had the same reservations as you. The number one thing I did was to educate myself. The F12 is a great car. The F12 is a smooth seemless operator. The 599GTO is the complete opposite. The 599GTO is difficult to drive at the limit and very rewarding to do so. The 599GTO is a brutal assault on the senses. Every time I drive my GTO its a shock and awe experience. She is a MUCH more capable beast than I am a driver. Personally, having driven a few F cars in my time, I can say that no other car has made me FEEL this way. Is she deserving of the GTO badge ? To me a resounding yes.

 

tortesq1,

I am quite sure that your 599GTO is a perfect car for you as it does all the things you like beyond your satisfaction. However, it is a bit of a stretch to say that the F12 will "never be in the same league". The F12 is more of a beast in all regards, straight line, track, top speed, stopping and is unique in its style while providing great luxury. The F12 was not designed to be as visceral as others - that is what will be coming in the F12 GTO. Only I do hope they call it something other than a GTO as that (unfairly) reminds people of a Pontiac.

 

Well said

 

For me, GTO means here somewhat a racing pedigree. 599GTO came after 599XX and has been described as its road going version, more than spiced up version of GTB - so it is less or more understandable to use GTO badge.

So far no XtremeXperimental version of the F12 exists or even is being planned, thus GTO badge should be safe for a while. Even if I am very eager to see the racing incarnation of F12. The F12 is a fabulous car. And at least handling package etc. will be coming to it.

Referring to Pontiac etc./Ford/, we (Ferrari) wouldn't have such issues with GTO, F150 naming scheme if it was in Europe only.

 

...and a 360cs is a street version of 360c...430s is streetable version of 430c...599gto is....

gto owners get all worked up over it being based on xx and not the the 599 but gto values are high and going higher because a tuned 599 is an awesome car that doesn't need further rationalizations

 

This is a strange discussion…First of all the fact that Ferrari decided to make a handful of XX cars for wealthy customers that never raced against anything, does not qualify any model to carry the GTO badge. So the fact that there is/will be no F12XX does not necessarily disqualify the F12 from being eligible for a GTO badge. I think that the probability -under Marchionne's leadership- of the GTO badge being used again is high. My own information does not suggest that there will be a F12GTO, but I may be wrong.

Also any 599XX owner will tell you that there is big difference between a 599GTO and their car. The engine is pretty close, but the aero and chassis setup are completely different. Calling the 599GTO a road going XX is extreme

I m a former 288GTO and 599GTO owner. Both are terrific cars and both are less deserving of the badge than the 250, on the basis of their race pedigree. The 288 was hit by the rule changes, the 599 was never intended to race.
If we want to be purists, Ferrari should never put a GTO badge on a car unless it plans to homologate it and pit it against other manufacturer's race cars. I would love to see that happen again, but it is not part of Ferrari's strategy given current support for F1 only.
On the other hand Marchionne would probably tell you that the GTO badge is a valuable piece of Ferrari history, one that adds value to special models of the range, like it did on the 599GTO and therefore should be used again whenever a limited series is produced.

It is all a matter of personal preference and Ferrari love the fact that tifosi like us argue about these things! So I d rather celebrate the next V12 limited edition (and hopefully buy it) than argue if the F12GTO is as deserving of the badge as a 599GTO!

 

+1

 

Completely agree.

Your thought RE Marchionne and the GTO badge is interesting. I don't think it'll be called GTO (but won't be surprised), nor do I care about the GTO moniker used/abused (which ever way you look at it. Personally my view is that no one will confuse a 250, 288 or 599 GTO with each other but that's just me....). As long as the F12 ''hardcore'' will come, I'm a happy boy.

 

I have the privilege of driving both the GTO/F12 and both cars speak to different senses of mine in HIGHLY positive and very different ways. The F12 is a bi-polar car which I can drive into the city with great ease or conversely open it up (safely) for a more emotional ride though it's by far the most refined driving experience Ferrari 12 cylinder car I've owned.

The GTO is simply a SENSORY OVERLOAD ride for me, and not necessarily the car I would take into the city by choice. It's a car that gives me more emotional responsiveness than any other Ferrari's I've driven. If I had to give up one of the cars it would be the F12 without hesitation.

I'm starting to feel that EVEN IF a F12 GTO is built it will not adversely impact the 599 GTO market value as those of us that own GTO's understand the unique feeling its evokes from us absolutely every time we sit behind the wheel.

 

ROMO, with your mighty V12 stable you need to join the "Scuderia GTO" and help us keep "spreading the word"

 

I believe you missed my point mate. The LaFerrari is the company's halo model. As such it will have the best that the firm has to offer for a good few years. A V12 with 800 HP or more for the F12 GTO (or whatever it might be called) is a no go since the lesser model cannot be seen to have a better version of the hypercar's engine. Also, Ferrari has stated categorically that the existence of the electric motor's torque in the LaFerrari has allowed company's engineers to tune the V12 for more power high up in the rev range. Thus, I am pretty certain that the extreme F12 will have circa 770 HP.

 

The huge demand for the F50, Enzo and LaFerrari say a different story. As good as the GTO might be, it's no hypercar like the aforementioned Ferraris.

 

I concur that Maranello has chosen to specifically exclude the 599GTO from their Ferrari Supercar list of 288GTO, F40, F50, Enzo and LaF. I can live with that. I also think that down the road the 599GTO will be elevated to the list of all time greatest F cars, regardless of the GTO being chacterized as a "supercar" or "hypercar". Its just my opinion that the 599GTO is a much better drivers car than any other car I have been in. My respectful suggestion to those on the fence about the GTO's special character is to get some real seat time in one. Better yet, go back to back with an F12, a 458 and the GTO.

 

George330,

How long did you own your 599GTO ? How many miles did you put on her ? Why did you sell the 599GTO ? Why, for that matter did you sell the 288GTO ? Are you a car dealer ? Just wondering out loud as most of the first generation 599GTO owners were either speculators/flippers that didn't drive their car or enthusiasts that drive the heck out of their beasts. I apologize in advance for the characterization, but I think its important to know where one is coming from. Personally, I'm a 2nd gen. owner and I would not part with my GTO even if you offered me a significant profit over what I paid for her. Thats how much I like her. In addition, some of your information regarding the 599GTO is just plain erroneous. A careful review of the owners literature makes clear that the 599GTO is, in large part, directly derived from the 599XX. It is not "extreme" to say this as Ferrari says this in the owners manual ! Does it have unmuffled front sidepipes, a ground hugging front diffuser or a massive rear wing ? No as some of these things just wouldn't be street legal. As an example of XX technology transfer - what F car tranny ever had the racecar multiple downshift capability when at full tilt by just holding in the downshift lever ? The GTO has this and dare I say that is is unique on any Ferrari. The 599GTO has this technology. I could go on and on but the important thing is that the GTO engine and transmission (among other things) are direct derivatives of the 599XX. I will never put down the F12 as it is a great Ferrari, but I think that before people go spouting off bashing the 599GTO they should have massive experience with her and not just occasional Sunday drive. I really believe that many original 599GTO owners have no idea what they bought. They bought a limited V12 special from Ferrari and hoped for a rise in value. These were the flippers. Personally, I think that all the speculators missed the boat in not driving the crap out of her as the 599GTO is the BEST drivers Ferrari in a generation. So please don't be haters if the F12 doesn't get a GTO badge. Go and buy a 599GTO and add it to your collection with the great F12. For the record, even though my experience with the F12 is limited, I can say that the F12 is a 100X better daily driver than the GTO can or ever will be. The F12 is easier to drive by far compared to the GTO. The GTO is meant for the drivers driver and until you really experience her and what she is capable of I just don't think you can understand. You will not master the GTO in a few Sunday drives. My 2 cents.

 

Masterfully articulated as usual and as a 2nd generation GTO owner with a F12 I concur with your comments. Cheers!

 

Masterfully articulated as usual and as a 2nd generation GTO owner with a F12 I concur with your comments. Cheers!

 

I certainly agree the 599 GTO is exceptional and was a substantial change to the standard 599. The link with the XX project is strong, but not as strong as you want to believe, but it was good marketing all the same at a time when they needed to shift some cars. No different to the so called road going challenge cars. To compare the 599 GTO with the F12, it is as relevant as comparing the 599 GTO to a GTB. The 458 Speciale is a distance away from the standard 458 in terms of dynamics, and that is what the F12 evo car will be like. It is not simply a HGTC type jump, but will be as different to the F12 as the Speciale or GTO were to their base cars. What they call it is another matter. The 599 GTO is an exceptional car and one of the very best Ferrari has ever built but it is not a GTO in the true sense of homologation just clever marketing to use an historical moniker in time of need. It worked, they built a lot more than 599 , and there are plenty of ecstatic happy owners. Win win situation.

 

Your post is insulting. You speak of a person you have never met and label me based on nothing. I m not a car dealer, I have never speculated on cars and I m a second generation owner of most of my cars with the exception of Ferraris made after 2008.

I also mentioned above that the 599GTO is a great car and I have said in other posts that I would love to own another one. As for the differences between GTO and XX, lets not argue. Suffice to say that there was a reason the XX cost more than 3 times what the GTO cost.

I sold my GTO because I bought an Enzo. Couldn't afford both and I chose the latter.I also had to sell my 330GTC to finance the purchase. So I became a second generation Enzo owner. Next time I will check with you before I do that, I don't think I can handle another post like this one!

 

Multiple downshifts... A Cali does that too BTW.

 

Well I found that some of the responses here were a bit jaded compared to other forums on FChat. So I decided to do a little research on the GTO legacy and found more about their owners than the cars themselves. Seems current GTO owners are very possessive of their cars. This is quite understandable. But there is also a sense of this being the best drivers car ever built – period. Nothing does or ever will come close - ever. Nothing can be in the same “league”. So when a car like the F12 comes along it is seen as threat and not a celebration of Ferrari’s best offering in the class. So sad. When I decided to buy a Ferrari, I looked at all the models and did research for years. I decided on the fabulous F12 in Rosso Maranello and lots of options. I wanted to buy new but Ferrari plays its games with buying used first. I offered full MSRP in cash (really cash) but they were not interested. I eventually found one with 2K miles and all the must haves and snatched it up. I love this car and the dual personality it has. Many of the auto journalists are on record saying it is too fast or too much car for anyone. It just so happens that it took the “fastest production font-mid engine V12 rear wheel drive car in Ferrari’s history” crown away from the 599GTO.

I could have purchased a 599GTO but, to me, it looks just like the 599GTB which is a large form factor and a bit dated especially the interior. It just doesn’t do it for me visually. Some have said the same about the F12 (as hard as that is to believe!). It’s just a personal thing. Both are great cars but I do not rejoice in my car by mocking someone else’s. I also know that the next F12 will be even faster but not necessarily better for me if they mess with the design. Again, I believe the last year or so of the F12 will be an offering with greater than just an additional 47HP (the 777HP referred to earlier). It doesn't matter what it is called and I don’t think that threatens the LaFerrari with its total of 960HP and 1049HP for the XX. They are correctly referred to as being in a different league. What would threaten the LaFerrari would be adding KERS or a carbon frame to any other model. The V8s are now going to be turbo to get the HP and the V12 will get better tuning. The LaFerrari will get better tuning on its V12 and more output from the garage door opener (electric motor).

 

The 599 GTO is the Hamilton of the Ferrari stable. Very capable, but polarizes opinion like no other model...

Re the topic of this thread - the F12 GTO - well we have already seen Ferrari turn out F12 special models so the demand is there. The true deciders of this cars fare will be the accountants. If the margin made from producing a limited run of hot F12s is superior to sticking with the standard model at the end of the models life, then it will happen. It just won't be called GTO...

 

Very good post.

I'd like to add that in another post, 599GTO bashing was mentioned. Nobody here is bashing the 599GTO, far from it. I think it's a great car. But in terms of what the GTO moniker represents, it is very specific; at least viewed from a puritans perspective. The 288GTO may not have raced, but like the 250GTO, it was built as a car for homologation, and no matter how much of an 599XX the 599GTO is, it won't change the meaning of the moniker or the fact that the 599GTO was not developed as a road going race car specifically for homologation purposes. For this reason, I find it puzzling, and somewhat condescending towards the F12 and its owners, when the 599GTO owners state that a hot F12 is not eligible of carrying that moniker, just because the 599GTO is related to the 599XX.
Again, nobody is bashing the car or taking anything away from its performance capabilities, but Solid State is correct when he states that these cars evolve, and at some point, a better and faster model will come along. I for one see that as a good thing.

Anyway, I'm just very excited about the possibility of a hot F12, and they can call it what ever they want

 

for clarification ...

In this context, "homologation" means "approved for racing by the sanctioning body". It does not mean "built for racing", nor does it mean "built with the intention of racing". The approval comes from the sanctioning body, not the factory.

In the 250 GT generation, the "O" was added by the sanctioning body to indicate that the 250 GT was approved for racing ... and the 250 GTO was born. The factory provided the "GT" moniker, and the sanctioning body provided the "O".

Not so, for the 288 GTO. Ferrari (Enzo himself, iirc) decided to call the car "GTO", before the car was built (and perhaps even before Group B racing was established), certainly well before the car was homologated. At this point, the original meaning of "GTO" became obscured ... at this point, a moniker was born.

My conclusion : the 599 GTO is certainly "worthy" of the moniker ... if, for no other reason, the factory decided that the car is worthy of the moniker. The word "homologation" was already obscured in the 288 GTO generation; the connection to the 599xx is sufficient to establish the 599 GTO as a "true GTO".