F12 GTO?

Great things explained in a great manner. I enjoyed reading your post Werewolf.

This post just put an end to the debate.

The name of the car has no importance at all, what matters is the thrill you get behind the wheel.

 

Tradition and past practice suggest that you are right. The thing that could upset this logic is if Sergio decides that there is more money to be made by milking the F12 and applying the GTO moniker. Sergio is not Luca.

 

La F12

 

Approved Thanks to the gentleman wearing the shades

 

I also am an owner of an F12 and although I have only had it a couple of weeks I spent months waiting on it ... and I really think it is a fantastic car. I do understand why the 599 GTO advocates feel the way they do I would have to think of the comparison of the 458 (current gen V8 mid engine) and the 430 Scud .. while the 458 is a fantastic car it it just cannot compare to the rawness and excitement of the 430 SCUD . (which I do own) .. and i think that would be a fair comparison to the relationship between a 599GTO and the F12 ... They are both great cars just totally different .. THe F12 can be driven as a DD in complete comfort and is fast as can be ..
Yet the 599GTO is a more of a raw car and will give a different feel..
I of course would love to get a 599 GTO before to long but not to replace my F12 but maybe in addition..
Now weather Ferrari will build a F12 GTO ... beats me.. ....
just my 2 cents....

 

+1

 

Good post Werewolf.

 

LARRYH - I have followed your acquisition of the F12 and it is very beautiful indeed. You must be ecstatic! I agree with your comparison of the newer car being faster and more refined than the older car yet the older car having a more raw and different feel. I think that the newer faster cars always seem to come with more refinement and less feel. Technology advances in the subsystems make the higher performance possible at the "cost" of feel.

With respect to any future performance enhanced F12, I do not believe there is any issue with the final version having 800HP or more. What will drive this is the turbo war being ignited in the V8 category. You cannot have the 458 replacement be faster than the premier V12 category (talking F12 here not LaFerrari). In the 458 forum you see much talk about a ~670HP+ turbo on its way in 2015. Ferrari has to make sure it can out perform the McLaren 650S and its variants but not embarrass the premier class F12. The turbos will gain HP with just SW while the V12s need more complex tuning. Luckily, the F12's motor is already tuned to a couple hundred more HP through its application in the LaFerrari. Yes, it will need updates to balance the torque lower down but I'll bet this is already well underway. A couple months ago we saw testing of F12s doing hot laps at Fiorano and Nürburgring. It was assumed they were testing the next upgrade. I think it was testing for both engine and suspension upgrades. They wont jump all the way in one shot and they have 5 1/2 more years before the series is retired but that F12 was flying at the ring for sure.

The LaFerrari is not threatened by a tuned F12 because it is in a different class and is a hybrid with over 1000HP. The threat is a faster mid engine class that can gain a couple hundred HP with just a SW change and for a lot less money. NA engines are under attack from the forced induction crew and lets not forget the 700HP Dodges and Corvettes. I kinda like knowing that unless its well over $1M the car next to me does not stand a chance.

 

LARRYH- can you please post pics of your new F12....?

 

Well explained Jeff … as always. Thanks.

M

 

Well said Werewolf ! Agree 100%.

 

From the F12 picture thread, a stunning car:
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143554299-post1901.html

 

Mmmm, yes but a few facts. La Ferrari V12 'only' puts out about 70 HP more (electric motors aside), not 'a couple of hundred' and also it produces 963HP not 'over 1000HP'. Consequently there is not much mileage left in tuning the F12 without more radical moves.

 

Thanks also there are pictures posted in my thread FINALIZED MY F12.. which chronicles
the build....

 

Respectfully disagree. The LaFerrari XX is now being quoted at 887HP on the V12 with the same 163HP vibrator (electric motor) for a total of 1050. That's 156HP on the V12 over the current F12. I rounded up but that's why 850HP puts it below the top model (which isn't a requirement) and likely enough to keep the 672HP turbo at bay.

Below are some other numbers to ponder. Did a search on the models being discussed. The engine specs seem close enough from site to site with minor variances. Some of the other data seemed to vary quite a bit from site to site so the more favorable number within reason was chosen. Some have two values such as max speed and down force. For max speed the first number is the OEM quote and the second was from 3rd party actual. For the down force, the two numbers kept coming up. Could be the different positions of the rear wing or it could be that the speed was much higher.

Thought it might be interesting given the topic. Some values just could not be found. Feel free to make corrections if you find a verifiable source. Doesn't seem right that the 599GTO has more drag than the 599.
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Thought I'd share these slides. They provide some nice insight into the the way the V12 in the LaF delivers it's power and what they did to it vs. F12 to optimize performance with hybrid drive. (the grey dotted line in the first slide is the F12 torque curve).

The last slide list a few of the engine modification over F12.
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The LaXX's engine output is a moot point, as that car is not road legal. Also, it is really important that the halo car is above normal Ferraris. The 599 GTO was only allowed to match Enzo's power some 10 years later. The electric motor isn't the only thing that should set the LaFerrari above its lesser siblings.

 

Nice information. AFAIK the GTO has more drag than the GTB due to the more aggressive bodywork. My guess is this is made up for by the bump in power and the reduction in mass.

As to F12 GTO. I say they can call it whatever they want. It will be a bananas monster of a car. And I'd expect them to exceed the 599 GTO and F12 performance and feel because that should be their mission. But maybe they decide for another mission?

 

Of course the LaXX V12 engine output is relevant. Its the same engine platform as the F12 tuned to nearly 200HP more (rounding up here). It demonstrates the future of the V12 and where the higher performance F12 can/will go. Its also a little hypocritical to discount the LaXX because it is not road legal yet continue to compare the 599GTO engine to the 599XX engine. Just sayin.

IMO, what really defines a halo car is:
1. Vehicle price ($1M+)
2. Vehicle Performance (total vehicle performance - 950 to 1050HP, 650+ torque, lap times, acceleration, deceleration, top speed)
3. Vehicle Production quantity (less than 500 units -advertised)
4. Vehicle Technology (Hybrid powertrain, next gen braking, carbon fiber construction, active areo, exotic styling, etc.)
5. Exclusivity (no you can't have a new one - even if you have the cash. Ferrari selects you.)

You can see that the five items above keep the LaFerrari a halo car regardless of the HP in the F12. A higher performance F12 V12 engine will not threaten any of the five items above. Its just not an issue.

I do find the prior posted table interesting as it shows the current F12 is much closer to the 599XX EVO than it is to the 599GTO.

I also find it amazing that a 12-cylinder with 13.5:1 compression can spin that fast. There must be some magic going on in the valve train to pull that off. I'm still digesting the slides MM posted (don't know where he keeps getting this Ferrari only information!). Seems it did not take much to boost the F12 engine. Looks like just better flow into and out of the motor.

Love the continuously variable length intake tracks. I suggested in the 458 forum (regarding the fear of losing the Ferrari sound with turbos) that using a similar technique you could route the exhaust flow around the scrolls of the turbos so that at high RPM you still get the unimpeded NA scream and at lower RPM use the engine management to modulate turbo boost. This would actually bypass the turbos similar in concept to the current exhaust valves.

 

These are available also from press release materials which had shown on the net in May/June.

 

That is only 150HP extra with the benefit of the electrical energy to fill in for what must be pretty poor torque characteristics. And that is for a race car. A road car, non hybrid, would, IMHO, no way be usable with anything much more than an additional 50/70HP out of the current block.

 

The 599 GTO had a 50hp bump over the GTB. I see the bump for F12 between 60-70
These special edition don't usually garner huge HP gains.Anyways more importantly
is how raw and connected the car feels.Hopefully it does one up on the 599 GTO

 

Ferrari applied the GTO moniker on the 599GTO as they believed it was appropriate for a road homologated 599XX. Whether you agree or disagree matters not. What the real issue is here is whether there will be another "tuned" version of the F12. Whats wrong with the F12 ? Can't we agree that the F12 doesn't really need more power ? Does the F12 really need a "bump" in power to be more useful to owners or more competitive in the exotic car market ? I find it simply extraordinary that 99.99% of the modern V12 owners (me included) can't use whatever power they have under foot in their unmodded cars unless they are on a racetrack. Do we really need more power or do we need more functional driveability (ie. better traction, firmer suspension, more rawness, more of a visceral feeling, etc.) ? Candidly, I'd respectfully argue that none of us really truly expect there to be an F12 "GTO". We need and demand an F12 that has better traction that doesn't spin its wheels through the first 3 to 4 gears with the hammering of the throttle, better suspension tuning for the twisties, less body roll, etc. Seems to me that a well thought out "HGTE" version of the F12 is whats really needed. Just saying that arguing about needing more seems pretty silly when we really can't use what they have given us.

 

I find the terms "rawness" and "excitement" overused on this forum. It's similar to when Americans use the word awesome as a filler in every sentence.

What exactly do people mean when they say rawness? A gutted out interior, tons of road noise, clunky transmission and creaking suspension while traveling the speed limit?

 

Agree that it is possible to further tune an F12 to be more of a track machine, if that is what you want. I think the power levels are going to be driven more by product placement within the Ferrari lineup rather than any "need" for more power, so I agree on that point as well.

I guess I don't understand the part about better traction. Of course, improvements are always possible, but the F12 is already monstrously good in the traction department, in my own experience. The electronic driving assists are unmatched by any other car I've driven (meaning doing a good and uncannily transparent job of handling the tradeoff of acceleration/torque for maintaining grip), and if traction is an issue you simply keep some or all of them on. Yes, if you turn everything off, with the torque curve and power available here you can spin your wheels all day long. But you certainly do not have to. If I compare the F12 to other monster V12s with which I have experience (e.g. CL65 AMG), the F12 just mops the floor with them in terms of grip. Just my opinion though.