Entry level Ferrari

There were 17,000 360s produced and over 21,000 430s including all variants.

 

Thanks.
I'd heard that the 360 had the higher numbers.
Guess you can't trust what you read on the web.

 

Trust but verify as they say, but just going off what I know, here are some basic numbers: 360 Modena production: 8,500. 360 Spider production: 7,500, and if you include the Stradale production 1,288 units you end up with (roughly) 17,000. Ferrari production went up between the production the 360 (1999-2005) and F430 production 2005-2010 and so did the percentage of V8 cars being produced vs V12 cars. So naturally the number of base V8 Cars would go up. Even if Ferrari produced the same number of standard 430s as standard 360s that would still leave the Scuderia production which we know to be higher than Stradale production and 16M production, not to mention the Challenge cars which out number 360 challenge cars. Just my 2 cents.

 

Another difference to consider between the 360 and 430 are the number of MT cars. Fortunately, there are plenty of 6-speed 360s produced for both GTB and Spider. However, there is a much smaller percentage of MT 430s available. You'll definitely pay a premium for MT 430s.

Regardless, I agree the 6-speed MT 360 is the way to go for sure on an entry level basis. You might want to also consider the 348, if you want a more raw car and don't mind some additional maintenance.

 

Ferrari need to take a page out of the Porsche 911's book
and make many versions of the 458 and California T - IMO

 

I wonder if the 458 will end up besting the 430's numbers.

 

I hope they do. The 458 is a very fine Ferrari (except for lack of MT).

The more mid-engined V8s (and eventual turbo V8s) Ferrari produces, the better the chances of us having accessibility to a fine performance Ferrari for a reasonable tariff.

The V12s will likely remain exclusive.

 

Let Me ask you this:

How many people look at a 911 as being anything special anymore? (apart from 911 fans).

Where I live, nobody even looks at them once, let alone twice because there are so many of them on the road that they're now a bit "run of the mill", like a top end BMW.

Is that what you want Ferrari to become? - A car that no one thinks as being special anymore?


The last time I took My 348 TS out for a drive, I was driving through a city and had a brand new Audi R8 right behind Me. Sat at traffic lights, a young boy of @ 12 years old tugged his dads arm and exclaimed: "Dad!......dad!.......That's a Ferrari!"

His Father replied: "Oh yes son!......And there's an Audi R8 behind it!", to which the boy responded: "Yeah but that's a Ferrari!".

Now My car is not the prettiest Ferrari ever made, nor the most expensive, nor the fastest, and it probably cost 1/3rd to 1/4 of what the Audi cost, but to that kid it was far more special, and driving through the city it got at least as much, if not more attention than the R8 did!

The reason why it's still seen as being special? - Because there is a mystique about Ferrari, a big part of which is based on the fact that you rarely see them.

Make as many Ferrari's a year as Porsche make 911's and bang! - There goes all the mystique, and with it, any thoughts of it being something special.

IMO

 

Produced? Yes. Available for sale? Not really, at least for coupes. Not as easy as it was just a year ago. I think there are "maybe" half a dozen manual coupes in the US market right now. And more than a few of those have been for sale all year so DD is needed!

It's a lot of Ferrari for the money and a ton of fun to own!

 

One of our esteemed members, 360 Trev, had this data compiled...

Ferrari Production Statistics
Color 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008
Red 52.9% 46.8% 47.4% 45.9% 46.1% 48.2% 54.6% 55.0% 51.4% 50.4% 47.9% 45.8%
Black 7.4% 9.5% 9.5% 8.0% 8.9% 9.6% 10.9% 14.2% 15.7% 18.0% 21.7% 22.1%
Grey 16.6% 17.7% 21.5% 26.7% 25.2% 25.4% 18.1% 16.0% 20.9% 19.4% 17.1% 13.5%
Yellow 10.3% 10.2% 10.2% 7.6% 8.9% 7.1% 5.7% 4.1% 4.5% 3.7% 3.4% 3.5%
Blue 10.6% 14.0% 9.9% 9.3% 8.5% 7.3% 7.8% 7.4% 4.9% 3.7% 2.7% 3.0%
White 0.6% 0.5% 0.4% 0.8% 1.0% 0.8% 1.2% 1.7% 1.5% 2.8% 3.5% 5.8%
Green 1.2% 1.1% 0.7% 0.6% 0.5% 0.4% 0.1% 0.1% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
Other 0.3% 0.2% 0.4% 1.2% 1.1% 1.1% 1.5% 1.4% 1.3% 1.9% 3.6% 6.3%

All figures are in % and from issue 4 of the Official Ferrari Magazine. All shades of a color are included in the figures, so red includes RC, RS and all other reds.
Interesting to see fall of yellow and blue in popularity as opposed to the huge rise of black and to a lesser extent white over the 12 year period.

Between ~1999 and 2004 roughly 17,500, F131 chassis'd (i.e. 360's) cars produced for the world.

Breakdown;
(49%) 8.7k, 360 Modena's
(41%) 7.5k, 360 Spider's
( 7%) 1,288, Challenge Stradale's
( 2%) 300, 360 Modena Challenge (Race Cars)

Total: 17.5k (over 5 year build period)

360 Modena - 2.6k manual, 6.1k F1
360 Spider - 2.1k manual, 5.4k F1
Challenge Stradale - 1.2k F1

 

My recollection is that the California design was originally intended to become a Maserati and r & d and production costs were so high it had to become a Ferrari.

 

George Kacher has written in Automobile Magazine of a slightly down-sized 458 with a turbo V-6 engine.

 

The two with whom I've spoken privately, and not for attribution, are not happy. They are concerned that not only will it affect new car sales but also sales of per-owned Ferraris, since it will, well not 'flood', but markedly grow the number of pre-owned, therefore 'entry level' Ferraris. Luca was correct. But Luca is gone.

 

Seth, I agree with you and I have the same concerns.

However, just for the sake of fun "what if" discussions... I think if the performance and price of the 458M or Turbo model if you want to call it that- are likely a big improvement over the 458- a car already a jr supercar and a car reliant on electronics and paddle transmsssion - there could be a space for an "entry level" sports car model to add to the product matrix. I've heard grumblings about maybe such a car might see a return of the manual transmission and would be more of a sports car (meaning manual shifting) as opposed to a supercar. What if this car costs say $35k over a Cali-T and is about $75k below a 458M... Granted this is all just speculation and conjecture and lunchtime talk.

I think it is possible and might be a smart move as I do think there are people who would like a true manual transmission option.

It could also provide better economies of scale for various shared parts across the models.

 

Agreed, Caeruleus; I could see a smaller manual 456T berlinetta with very few costly - and for the most part 'required' - options at a price maybe $50K below the 458.

 

I can't quite recollect where but I remember reading an article that speculated
that when the do replace the 458/458M series with a new platform It will support both
V6 & V8's but each will carry different body styles and the V8 will be more aggressive
Which makes a lot of sense because when you do it at the inception of a new platform
the costs will be less and you can amortize them over a long period.

 

... trouble is, (1) the further downmarket they go the slower they'll sell, (2) the more difficult it is to maximize value (e.g., "the Cadillac that zigs?"), (3) the greater the opportunity cost, and (4) competition (pre-owned exotics).

Last thing Ferrari North America needs, coking up their lots is, yet another slow mover.

Moose slow, the slowest of the slow, even slower than the Elise, ALFA's glorified MR2, behemoth blind-spots and SUV wheels standard equipment, is dreadfully overpriced. Fundamentally flawed, no matter how the ALFA Romeo people tart-up their 4C, final analysis, value (lack thereof), no 4-pot is worth over US$40K. Turbocharger notwithstanding. For what the ALFA 4C depreciates, moment its driven off the lot, is enough to send your daughter off to college, in a brand new Prius.

Not likely a downmarket Ferrari will ever be able to compete, with such an ample quality of mollycoddled, low mileage Craig's List Ferraris -- asj.

 

Um, Porsche is still making entry level cars and has ever since the 914. 924,944,968,boxster still going...

 

I'm still seeing a decent percentage of MT 360 coupes for sale, with no real premium for the MT, which is good. Unless prospectors mount some kind of organized effort to grab all available MT cars to artificially drive up prices, I doubt there is much to worry about. Lets not create a panic buying situation here. We've seen enough of that with the 328 and 308 recently.

I'm just baffled as to why they made virtually no MT for the F430. The drop-off of MT cars from the 360 to the 430 was a steep one, from what I understand. And, of course, none at all for the 458.

 

the paddle only models will hit a steep depreciation curve I think, unless someone makes an economical conversion package to make them three pedals.

As for Ferrari making entry level 50k Ferraris, the day they do that is the day I stop liking Ferrari. Look at what the cayman and boxster did for Porsche; totally ruined the brand's image.

 

I think things are fine the way they are. I thought a lot about the 4C and when I saw how long it would take to get here, the cost being that of a sweet Porsche and the awful first gen headlights, I thought why not go all out. I got my 348 for less, but a whole ton more in tradition, history, passion and value. I spent a ton on my engine out service but it needed every penny after 20 years and I got bumped up to 355 exhaust ecus, flushed the heater core, and a brand new light control stalk. (One ecu threw a slow down code after hosing out the wheel wells last week so be careful, but the green silicon is better than stock 348. Cleared on it's own) I'm a loving the 599 right now but it will be some time before I can upgrade. I think that pathway makes sense. Us newbies earn our stripes by cultivating the passion and nursing the aging beauties. Imagine what happens when a 1950s TR hits $13 million?

 

If you actually check the cars over quite often the paddle cars are reported as a manual transmission. It can lead to a false sense of the market or frustration if you actually want a stick and extra peddle!

 

The ~25% bump in horsepower in the 430 over the 360 could have had something to do with it. There were plenty of issues to address in the drive train I would wager. To my eye the 430 with stick doesn't seem as integrated into the cabin design.
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Unfortunately, I believe this will happen. Once public, Ferrari will have to answer to their shareholders, who's only interest is increasing the stock price. I hope i'm wrong.

Joe

 

Thanks. That's in line with what I'm hearing too. The US dealers don't have sufficent supply of new cars to base a shop on so they rely on the used trade.
Their sales model is, to say the least, unique. Selling new cars to hungry customers willing to wait and/or secure a place in line by buying a used interim car and then artificially restricting use of the new car so as not to reduce its resale status.
Is this any way to run a dealership? Oddly enough yes but only through careful management. Increase the stream of new cars and it will fall apart.