Here's a pic of me pulling the engine out of my 612 yesterday!

Ok, I whas wrong about that...

Guido

 

I'm still confused about right or left bank. This picture for ME is passenger bank, so 1e cilinder in front. What way the belt is turning ? To the right or left ?
Whas it cil. 6 on this bank that valves where bent again ? If so, I hope not, there can be valves bent...again.

Guido
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At some previous post, you posted this pic, and stated that your engine has the "old" firing order.

At other sources, I have read, that this old and new firing order is a complete hogwash and that Ferrari simply changed the way they counted the cylinders:

OLD:
Firewall
6 - 12
5 - 11
4 - 10
3 - 9
2 - 8
1 - 7
FRONT
Firing order:
1-12-5-8-3-10-6-7-2-11-4-0



NEW:
FIREWALL
6 - 7
5 - 8
4 - 9
3 - 10
2 - 11
1 - 12
FRONT
Firing order:
1-7-5-11-3-9-6-12-2-8-4-10

Which makes them in fact exactly the same, and the "OLD" thing in the graph that you've posted earlier simply WRONG. If you've timed your engine accordingly, then you should be off considerably.

Of course, I could be completely wrong here, as I am very new to this V12 thing and can only quote what I've read elsewhere!!!!

Hans...
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With graph that I've found elsewhere on the interweb:

I'm sure that Fchat won't allow the URL here, so with a few spaces added to the domain name, for you to cut& paste to fit - the whole discussion on this topic:

http://www.ferrari life.com/forums/showwiki/V12-Cylinder-Numbering-and-Firing-Orders?do=comments
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I think the red circles in the photo of posts 431 and 452 tell the whole story. If the lobe separation angle is indeed as large as it appears in that photo (maybe 170 camshaft degrees?) then the exhaust valves are opening at or slightly Before Top Dead Center of the power stroke. Therefore the cylinder charge is moving out the exhaust port when ignition occurs and combustion takes place at practically atmospheric pressure in the exhaust ports/manifolds.
Note that this is consistent with the observations of weak combustion from the passenger bank when the engine is running (to paraphrase Jason's earlier posts).

If this is the case, then the exhaust valve opens as the piston descends on the power stroke, thereby avoiding piston-valve contact. And the intake valve is closed for the entire exhaust valve event, so no valve-valve contact. This scenario seems to fit all the evidence that I'm aware of.

So I suspect the engine management system may be operating as designed and that restoring the exhaust cam to it's correct timing (roughly 110 camshaft degrees advanced relative to intake cam) should have the engine running normally.

Of course, I've been wrong before so let's see what the inspection reveals before making any conclusions.

If we consider velocity vectors, the crankshaft velocity vector would be toward the rear of the vehicle, and the camshaft velocity vector would be toward the front (opposite the crankshaft's direction of rotation). So the cam belt is moving according to the arrow called "Turning to left" in your drawing.

 

I thought the firing order only changed for the 456M model. My understanding is that Ferrari was not impressed for whatever reason and promptly went back to the old firing order for future V12 models.

 

Adam- Yup.

 

Unless I missed something, how did the meeting scheduled for last Monday evening with the FERRARI Tech go? Did the Tech bring the SD2 or 3 with him? What codes and problems showed up? What input did he provide you with upon physical inspection?

 

Jason, what did Vince find?

Not to detract from your thread, but I'd like to try to clear up the cylinder numbering & firing order point that I initially brought up over 4 years ago on the other site, as several of my diagrams from that thread are referenced here in yours.

The change in the 456M's firing order has been discussed a lot, and one poster on the FCA forum (FCA Technical Forums - Fuel and Firing Order) opined that after reading Ludvigsen's "The V12 Engine" and reviewing Dan Whitney's appendix on V12 firing orders, that in addition to changing the firing order of the 456M, perhaps Ferrari had also changed the cylinder numbering on this engine to an arrangement where 1 & 7 were at the front of the engine and 6 & 12 were at the rear. By doing this, the two changes cancelled each other out, and there was no change in the firing order at all, and it was only a "shell" game.

This piqued my curiousity, so I began studying it, and found the following:

1. Ferrari apparently have remained true to their cylinder numbering convention, ie #1 is always the right front cylinder when you're at the rear of the engine, facing the flywheel. #1 & #12 are the front cylinders on right & left, respectively, and #6 & #7 are the rear cylinders, on right & left respectively. This is documented from photos of early Ferrari engines' numbering & firing order plates.

2. During their history, Ferrari have switched back & forth between the 1-7-5-11..... firing order, and the 1-12-5-8.... firing order (and there is a 3rd, which was used on the flat-12's, but that's not the subject here). (Again, as documented from cylinder numbering & FO plates)

3. Generally, the Colombo & Lampredi engines used the 1-7-5-11...firing, while for the later Jano/Dino V12's Ferrari settled on the 1-12-5-8....firing order, along with the current FF's, F12's etc.. Why they decided to throw a curve ball and give the Jano/Dino 456M a Colombo/Lampredi firing order is anyone's guess, but it would be interesting to know. Perhaps it was simply a "science experiment" and it didn't produce the results they wanted, so they reverted.

So, the 456M engine's cylinders were numbered consistently, according to Ferrari's historical convention, ie 1 &12 at front, 6 & 7 at rear, but the firing order was indeed changed to the earlier Colombo/Lampredi order of 1-7-5-11..... as the P/N's for the left bank cams are different on this engine from the cams of the 456.

Perhaps for simplicity we could refer to the three different firing orders according to their engine designers as:

1-7-5-11....: Colombo/Lampredi
1-12-5-8....: Jano/Dino
1-9-5-12....: Forghieri (for the flat 12's)

BTW, the references in my diagrams to "Old" and "New" are not mine, and came from Ludvigsen's book, "The V12 Engine", page 414. I think this is confusing, as when referring to the firing orders, Ludvigsen calls the 1-12-5-8 firing order the "Old" one, and the 1-7-5-11 firing order the "New" one. IMHO, looking at it from the engine designer perspective, it really should be the other way around!

If anyone is interested to continue this, perhaps the mods would be good enough to prune this topic out & start a new thread?

Sorry for the brief diversion!

 

I do follow what you're saying.
Excellent point, this would explain a lot.

 

We are in suspense watching your journey. I thought you checked that. And...you did.

 

I'm confused, Jano never designed a Ferrari v12. Dino's were repowered with Columo v12's otherwise ran Jano's v6.
Pete

 

Pete, I based my statement on Jano/Dino/Enzo collaborating on the first 65 degree V6 which was named after Dino, but which all the 65 degree V12's (through the 612) are descended from.

Just thought I'd give credit where it's due; obviously neither Dino nor Enzo "designed" the 65 degree Dino engine, Jano did, and he came up with the "unique" firing order that ran the engine as 3 x V2's, and which our V12's follow as 6 x V2's

 

John- Our 65 degree V12s are not set up like 6 v-twins, but like 2 inline 6s, Easy to see when you compare our 1, 12, 5, 8, 3, 10, 6, 7, 2, 11, 4, 9 firing order to an inline 6 order of 1, 5, 3, 6, 2, 4, which is every other cylinder of our V12s. Now start in the middle of the order at cylinder 6 for the inline 6 and you get 12, 8, 10, 7, 11, 9 for the other 6 cylinders.

That is why two completely separate exhausts, one for for each bank, work so well. Many equally spaced pulses extract exhaust gasses efficiently without interfering with flow. If they were V-Twins like US and German V8s, an X-pipe would actually improve flow.

 

Taz, I understand what you're saying; I design & build ignitions for these engines

What I'm saying is the 1-12 firing is the first V2, the 5-8 firing is the 2nd, etc. If you look at the cylinder layout and the firing order you'll see what I mean. I understand your point about the 2 x 6 cylinders linked to a common crank, but it's also firing like 6 x V2's as well.

Now the 1-7-5-11 sequence is still firing like 2 sixes linked to the same crank, but it's like 1 six is "facing" north, and the other is facing south. Hence, it's not firing as 6 x V2's anymore.

 

Interestingly, Jano didn't follow the Ferrari cylinder numbering convention with the Dino. #1 is still at the right front, but the two "front" cylinders are 1 & 4, and the two rear ones are 3 & 6.
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It would be interesting to see what would happen if you'd swap the two pumps. With them being controlled through the CAN bus, it could also be an electrical issue, rather than a pump issue....

 

Oh, that was you

With me in the process of wiring up an F133H 612 engine, I'm obviously VERY interested in this topic.

So, knowing all the above, which one do we have in the 612, the left or the right image? (regardless of the validity of the terminology of old/new). The LEFT one?

Thanks, and sorry for the hijack...
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Post 462 says.... The right "Old Ferrari...." picture.... but yes I am curious if this can be verified

Note sure how you guys post quotes... But it's quoted again here....

I can pretty much guarantee the cylinders are 1 and 12 at front and the firing order goes 1, 12, 5, 8, etc. Because there are two identical ecus and the crank position sensors are at 60 degrees off from each other in the layout. Both eggs should read to fire in the same respective order, starting with their front cylinders.

I've also gone through it cam by cam and leakdown tested in this firing order and it holds.

I will let you know what Vince has to say tomorrow.