today is an important day for Ferrari history

I think this is more about the origin of the design language of the mid-engined V8. They chose the 308 GTB to be the basis for the evolution of the design and not the angular GT4 or the more antique-ish front of the 246. They abandoned the design language of the GT4. I think it's a cool car, but they went a different direction. I don't think they are really re-writing history; they are focusing on the relevant pieces.

I think what they said makes sense personally and is something I've said in the past myself. You can see the evolution of the 308GTB in all the mid-engined V8s which followed; much harder to see the GT4 or the 246 in them.

 

Well, I'm with Alberto on the love for the Dino 246, which I have always considered as a masterpiece; and this, since I was a kid; and it has never looked outdated to me.

Taking this into account, it is difficult for me to consider the 308 as any "starting point" of a line, since, to my eye, the 308 is nothing more than a souped-up "Dino", with an "updated" seventies shape, and a V8 engine: but a "Dino" it is, nevertheless.

Don't get me wrong, I like the 308 very much, but I don't see it as a cornerstone.

Rgds

 

I can't be sure, but from many of the posts I read, I think many people may have forgotten just how significant the decision to use a 8 cylinder engine was.

Mr. Nerofer perhaps forgets the quantity of cars sold in 308 configuration, possibly? Cornerstone indeed.

The mid-engine placement was incorporated on previous cars, true. One of the reasons why the Dino badge was used from my understanding was to not alienate the v12 and flat 12 Ferrari customer base.

Contrarily, irrespective of the design , and the observer 'singletrack' is spot on, the design language went a different direction.

Note though that Enzo himself personally approved the design of the GT4 and had a significant hand in the layout, and construction of the car, and some fella named Lauda was asked to do design modifications to the car in the name of improved handling as a test driver.

The significance of the GT4 stands on it's own as evidenced by the resources invested in its success pre-launch. It remains the first mid engine V8 from Ferrari. Present day marketing cannot capitalize on that fact; thusly the nod to the GTB, IMHO.

 

Well yes Alberto, but remember that some of the very early prototypes of the 308 GTB were still badged "Dino"...so the 308 GTB was born a "Dino" indeed...
And think of what it would be today, if the name "Dino" has got the prestige it has nowadays, but from the begining; gone are the days when people were putting "Ferrari" scripts and badges all over their "Dino"; now a "Dino" is even BETTER than a Ferrari! then the 488 GTB would be still called "Dino"...

Ah well...

Rgds

 

NIki Lauda didn't worked on the 308 GT4, but on the 308 GTB, as it has been already discussed in others threads. The GT4 was already available on the european market when Niki arrived at the Scuderia in December 1973.

Rgds

 

If anyone is interested I would trade my GTB for this GTB. Also maybe a 458 or 16M. But that's about it.

-F

 

Well, this I am sure "some" fellow F-Chatters at least will find rather amusing, considering how much I have been pestering everyone, on every topic, with the production figures for every model and submodel of the whole 3x8 family, almost since I joined the forum...

But that doesn't make a model a cornerstone, otherwise with 36.000 cars produced the 360/430 cousins would be that cornerstone...which is more than the 21685 cars of the whole 308 / 328 family.
And, as I say very often, don't forget the single, unique, factory build 328 cabriolet...that no-one ever counts on the 328 statitstics, even if that car has a factory chassis number and is alive and well in Italy: which makes 7413 328s, by the way, not the 7412 always quoted; so you see, I know my figures...

Rgds

 

Parsing the bone fides of a Ferrari press release is a bit of a fool's errand.

But since we are, the 488 takes many styling cues from the 308 GTB which, in turn, took cues from the 246.

I doubt that the copywriter has half the knowledge of most here.

 

Haha - I know what you mean; but even a nice 430 could currently run you 120k. A solid 458 will run over 200k (been out 6 years now). I don't think you'll see 488s for 120k for over a decade.

 

Actually in all seriousness I like the new stuff, from the CS on. I think the F430 is great. But when I seriously consider moving up I ask myself why?

Performance? Well I already get speeding tickets in my slow 328.

Looks? Mmm, I think the 308/328 look as good or better than the new stuff.

Ease of use and safety? Yes, those would be reasons I would move up, ease of use and safety.

Actually I do lust after the special editions, CS, 16M and I think the 458/488 series are great. Maybe one day. But other than that, I'm keeping my 328.

-F

 

Unfortunately the original mid engine V8 was this but I guess Ferrari can't remember that far back......
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Respectfully: I stand by my assertion.

The 308/328 series of cars basically transformed Ferrari from a niche builder to a main stream product, the profits from that platform went on to finance it's future. Timing.

In context, I do believe that car platform can be considered, compared to all other cars, a turning point in Ferrari production. Your familiarity with it's production numbers and your contrary assertions surprise me sir. The era needs to be accounted for, oil prices of 1973, the whole climate if you will.

Just as the "factory" has new buildings added all the time, there can be more than one cornerstone of a production car. I however, feel that without a doubt, this car referenced was a turning point, simply put, a car which transformed Ferrari into a household name. And people clamored to dealerships to buy these Italian Cars one could actually live with on a daily basis.

Secondly, I have read over the details of the conversation and while omitted from his autobiography, there is nothing definitive stating he didn't have a hand in the car's development. Perhaps after production commenced, naturally possible. A man standing in front of a car in the pits does not my argument make, agreed. However, the argument is not disproved either.

Kindly,

 

Please don't get me wrong. I love the styling of the 246 and 308gtb and yes they have a direct lineage. I appreciate the fact the 488 is drawing from the 308gtb in a few obvious styling cues.

The gt4 is as we say an experiment (for it's time)- and not to everyone's liking and I'm not here to force the conversation that the gt4 is pretty too. It's subjective and to each their own.

It is the statement 'Ferrari's first mid engine v8' is what surprised me as such an astonishingly incorrect fact to put into the presses to peddle a new release. Ferrari should be embarrassed knowing their following is loyal and educated on the pedigree. If I were to release something like that without fact checking, me and my colleagues would be on the streets.

The 488 itself does seem to draw more heavily from the 458 than 308 but I would argue 458 looks more inspired by the 365gt4 512bb/i which I would argue is more 308gt4 in proportions than 308gtb.... not to derail the thread and get everyone excited. Bertone and Pininfarina penned and realized some of the greatest cars ever so each inspire and influence one another. jmo.

 

Nah you are spot on. I was in the same situation, then I went and beat the crap out of a Scud and lost my mind a little ; )

Safety is a concern. I had to put my 308 into a guardrail to avoid a deer and my wife was badly shaken up. It would have been ugly if I had hit it. I drove the Scud across the country without issue and in solid comfort. A F430 of 360 would do it in even better comfort and with more safety.

The 458 is the best car ever IMHO (to now). Now with the 488 being released, they will drop in price and be available for an insane price relative to what an amazing car it is to drive. It's the most intuitive car to drive at the limit and also one of the fastest. The systems integration is exceptional to mask the fact that it is working at all. Admittedly, I have a limited resume; but all the experts seem to agree as well. Don't drive one hard at the track unless you want to complicate your life ; )

The transmission is not engaging to me, but other than that, the 458 is bonkers.

 

Good to know man! Thanks!

That is very interesting. I didn't think the market was that soft there; but I don't follow it because I need no more cars or t-shirts : P I know the Scuds, CS, and 16m are doing as well or better in Europe vs the US, but those are limited production so not directly comparable to F430 or 458.

Solid 458 for 138k USD - really? I would do that right now and risk my marriage except I can't drive it here. I have to pay big bucks to get it converted, import it and only use it at track, or wait 25 years. Guess that is why the markets diverge...

 

This is how Ferrari defines a mid-engined V8 ever since 1976 IMHO unless I'm missing something:

*2 seats*
mid-engine
v8

Plus before getting upset with Ferrari, there is honestly zero way to explain the 308GT4 to 308GTB to 488GTB to the average owner in a tight marketing piece. You have to be realistic about that. It isn't a history lesson, it's about establishing a connection with a past design and probably also resurrecting the GTS and GTO badges as well.

 

I think you are missing something. a mid engine is defined by all mfr's as the engine located between the driver and the rear drive axles. no one really counts the seats when describing an engine placement? are you telling me an f1 car is not mid engine with 1 seat, or it only stops at 2, would a Mclaren with 3 not count as mid engine or a 1966 Ferrari 365P Berlinetta Speciale (it's a one off with 3 seats?

[/QUOTE]
Plus before getting upset with Ferrari, there is honestly zero way to explain the 308GT4 to 308GTB to 488GTB to the average owner in a tight marketing piece. You have to be realistic about that. It isn't a history lesson, it's about establishing a connection with a past design and probably also resurrecting the GTS and GTO badges as well.[/QUOTE]

You are right and in total agreement, I think Ferrari could have made all the connections to its legacy cars leading up to 488 and if they ignore the gt4 I don't care as I said. It's the fact most people who have an ounce of knowledge of what a mid engine vehicle is would question why Ferrari would make such an erroneous statement.

At least wikipedia defines ferrari's first road worthy v8 mid engine better than Ferrari does.

 

It all really doesn't matter- this is the most 1:1 historical car to relate to the 488, and everyone forgets about the 208 turbos which I think are cool in every aspect. I wish Ferrari stopped forgetting these cars too when paying homage to direct lineage.... I think they rock!

I am curious how the turbo would sound on a v8 road car as it spools up.

 

I think you are all missing my point they specifically said their FIRST MID ENGINE V8. No trying to parse words here but it was the GT4. I was not alluding to lineage, styling, etc. If would be like them saying their first flat 12 engine car was the 512 Boxer........

 

Yes for the Dino range. Stopped with the 365BB which became the 512BB when they increased the capacity.

I believe they have done this because otherwise the new number would be smaller than the old car, ie. 398 compared to 458. By naming it the 488 it seems like Ferrari are not taking a backward step ... so a good thing I think as I've always preferred the cc's per cylinder naming, but probably simply marketing.
Pete
ps: Note the 355, 360 and 430 were all anominalies naming wise ...