I agree that the fools chasing 60/70's American muscle cars are heading for disaster
I'd like to hear the underlying argument? A fascinating aspect of the huge spike in collector car valuations of the last five years is that American muscle cars are sitting on the sidelines. While certain european cars have doubled and tripled, American iron plunged during the financial crisis, and haven't recovered. My theory is that the demographic that collects American (small business owners, local professionals) haven't enjoyed the same recovery that has fueled the elite end of the market. It's too bad the Hagerty charts don't go back further in time, but to me it looks like based on historical trendlines, Prime US cars are undervalued. It's not an idle opinion: I just bought a restored Hemi Roadrunner which next to the 3 Porsche Turbos in the garage, just for example, looks like a screaming bargain. And cnPapa24, if we are talking about run-of-mill high volume Chevelle SS, then I agree, that is never going to be collectible. But when a historically significant, broadly adored car like a Yenko Camaro that just sold in Scottsdale, total production <100, sells for less than a garden variety 330 2+2 ferrari? That's an interesting market anomaly worthy of contemplation. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
In my opinion, another factor holding back muscle cars is the fact that there is not the worldwide appeal for them that there is for European sports cars. Rarity is certainly a factor, but if that were the only factor, why is a '67 Z/28 (of which there were only 602 built) not worth much more than $100,000? There were more than twice that many Ferrari Daytonas built, but look at the price differential. I think that is a function of the fact that the Daytona appeals to a much wider audience.
Musclecars emerged from the last bubble earlier than Ferrari. Right around the turn of the century, when a production Daytona was 100K, or so, a production '70 Hemicuda was 200, or close. As noted, production musclecars haven't kept pace with Ferrari and other European brands that rose with the tide in this latest round. Though specific cars, such as the '71 Hemicuda convertible that Mecum recently sold, have set new auction records. https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail.cfm?lot_id=WA0614-185434 [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5tQm8HBB2Y[/ame] So ... Perhaps production Ferrari - the several hundred 275 B's, for example, will settle back some at some point. Whereas specific unique variants (6885, if ever for sale) carry on setting new marks?
Maybe these 'fools' just like the car?.....and are simply "buying what they love"....which IS the first tenent of "car collecting". Jack
Agree. I don't think there is a non-race Ferrari that I'd trade my '65 Corvette f.i. coupe for. George
I was wrong to use the word "fool". This was foolish of me to say it so if I offended anyone let me apologize. I just feel that muscle cars from the 60/70s were made by the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands for each model should not be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. I just dont 'get it'. Even if some of the models were more rare than others, they are still based on the mass production cars. Muscle cars had horsepower but they dont handle well and are unstable at high speeds. Maybe beauty is in the eye of the beholder but to me most of these cars are damn ugly (Corvettes and Cobras being the exception). During the Enzo era, Ferrari was at the pinnacle of motor racing. His cars were all hand built with only a few hundred made for each model. The marque is globally recognized now with fans growing each year. I 'get' why classic Fcars are appreciating. I just dont get the appeal of the muscle cars.
availability vs the population of collectors ( basic supply vs demand )... "baby boomers" grew up with muscle cars and have reached a point in their time where they can afford to revisit their youth. The supply of muscle cars is almost infinite. The supply of cars to restore is large, allowing for a replacement parts industry to form, raising the number of available cars. What happens to these muscle cars as the baby boomers move on, will a new group of collectors form to appreciate and absorb the large supply of cars that is currently being held. The demand for muscle cars, for the most part, is limited to the US. The Ferrari brand is more global in scope / appeal, allowing for a larger number of collectors to join, while the supply of available cars is modest, insuring better price stability and growth over the long term. Current perception, coupled with the notion that the new generation's lack of interest in cars, muscle cars lacking provenance will have a difficult time maintaining values over the long term.
Yea, uh huh,.....I guess that's why American muscle cars are being bought and shipped to Europe by the container load. There is no lack of provenance for most significant muscle cars, and most are documented better than many a Ferrari. The supply of significant muscle cars is in fact, not infinite, it is quite the opposite. But what about the Ferrari bubble?????
You can fit 1 car in a container right? If they are shipping them to Europe where are these cars going? Most old roads in Europe aren't wide enough for these giant cars.
There are quite a lot of American cars in Europe. Go to a general classic car meet in the UK and you will see quite a number of Mustangs, Camaros and MOPAR etc there. I believe there is a also a big following for American cars in Scandanavia?
No, you can fit two to three in one container, if you are creative four, (ask me how I know). They go all over Europe; U.K., France, Sweden, Germany, The Netherlands, Finland etc. You would be surprised what you can fit on an "old road" in Europe. _____________________________________________________________________ I suppose if we wait long enough the "Ferrari bubble" will pop some day, as they always do.
When I turned 21 and living in California. I bought a new car with my first job out of college. I could have purchased a new Camaro or a Mustang which were infinitely better driving and handling than the older versions from the 60/70s but I didn't want to kill myself turning a corner in a rainy day. 25+ years later, my feelings havent changed. I just don't get the appeal of muscle cars. I wish back then I had a cool uncle or someone wise who could have informed me about a Dino or older 60's 12 cylinder Ferrari's.
Not bursting, per se, but surely the air slowly hissing out. Check current Paris results for most accurate readings. And please don't point to the single result of a super-desirable, long-lost, celebrity-associated car as evidence of a strengthening market.
...certainly buying what one loves is of PRIMARY importance...however...for most of us this is a hobby...and a VERY expensive one at that...so,FOR ME, I purchase a car for my love first and value second...I don't expect to really profit from a car as a true investment...cars require constant money thrown at them...plus,there are many other investments that over the long haul can perform equal to or even better than cars...so we go back to the idea that we are PASSIONATE about our cars and as to the investment aspect all we should expect is that when it comes time to pass them onto the next custodian we should expect to recoup pretty close to what we have invested in ...perhaps even a little more ...all along know the PRICELESS PLEASURE THEY HAVE PROVIDED US WITH...there was a post a few posts back about "dentist buying a porsche for $250k"...has anyone realized what it costs to become a dentist today?...4 years of college...4 years dental school...easily racking up $300k in debt...then you have to finance the purchase of a dental practice not to mention buying a house,etc.,etc...what I am getting at is that the "middle class"car collecting guy will evaporate due to other debt services...same as for lawyers ,physicians podiatrists,etc to be...the high end cars of our hobby (lusso,275gtb4,Daytona,etc) will not be affected by this at all but ALL other mass produced cars of ALL Marques will...the next generation will simply not be able to afford the cars due to the massive amounts of debt service...as for muscle cars I think they will die a slow death...I just sold a 57 vette that was fabulous...IT WAS MOST DIFFICULT...the average age of people looking at it was 65...before the last crash money was free so MASSES of people could afford the muscle cars and the like...NOW money is not free and people are hard pressed to get loans to buy muscle cars and values have been kept down because of this...also age has entered in...people that appreciate them the most are dying off...younger people gravitate to FERRARI,Porsche,Lamborghini,Jaguar,etc...so values of muscle cars will continue to lag...ENJOY THE CARS YOU LOVE FOR THE MOMENT IN TIME AND IN GOOD HEALTH EVERYONE!��
Hah! That brought back a very old memory: decades ago in the early seventies when my father ran Citroen Portugal the French government asked for a car to be made available in the Azores for a meeting. The Azores are Portuguese islands in the middle of the Atlantic occasionally used for international meetings such as that one. On the day the two men due to meet arrived there more or less at the same time, with their rides having been flown over a bit earlier. The Citroen DS of Monsieur le President de la Republique Francaise Georges Pompidou was able to negotiate the tight streets of the city but President Richard Nixon had to bail out of his landyacht limousine as it could not get around one of the tight city corners in the ancient city, its ridiculous length meant it had to go back to the airport empty so Nixon enjoyed a ride or two in the DS MS
At the Artcurial auction a 1968 Bizzarrini 5300 GT Strada sold for an amazing 1,187,200 Euros or $1,343,786 USD, including commission, for a new world record for any Iso or Bizzarrini non-race car. And later an Iso Grifo 7-Liter sold for 380,800 Euros ($431,025 USD) including commission. Bizzarrini And Iso Price Records Are Set Again Image Unavailable, Please Login
Were any Fchatter's present at the auctions in Paris that provide more color on the bidding action (or lack thereof). I agree with the above quote that those results seem to suggest a hiss.
The market is more than Ferrari's and as noted above both Bizzarrini's went for top dollar along with a iso grifo that went for a very strong price even though it had some issues. I would say the PSI is on the rise.
I was briefly in Paris on Saturday but long enough to get a feeling. Apart from meeting Jean Todt on the Axel Schuette stand that had a very nice Series 1 PF spyder 250 ( next to my ex B24 convertible, equally good looking!) i talked to Max ( even sat in the 212 Touring barchetta, my favorite of the show with the PF spyder, while Max was taking a picture to make me dream of bidding on the car at Villa Erba) and Matthieu ( of RM and Artcurial fame). Both were very happy ( understatement for extatic) with a post auction sale of 90pc and really very few things were left to potential buy, pretty much only dogs..yes on some cars they had to struggle with bid lower than low estimates, in some cases they had to work hard on sellers, but at the end the result shows that very good cars sell at a very good price, in some cases even unexpected prices. But questionable cars with dubious history, non matching, rebodied, fantasy unprovable origine, etc are not selling. Clearly the positive mood was also spreading among the brokers dealers, saw and chatted at length with Axel, Gregor, Franco, Michel, Geoffroy , Edward, Christoph and some others, all friends, everyone felt confident about the market and no market downturn , they had sold many cars ( obviously those have good cars) and all of them took the time to show me what they had , Franco even his Ferrari truck which looks like a cave inside!! The only one I did not meet was Simon K, who was with the winning bid on behalf of a client on the California SWB the day before as I did not go to the Baillon exhibition and I guess Simon anyway was somewhere sipping champagne and savoring victory even if personally he thinks the market is softening. Wish it would! But does not seem to be the case from what we see. Met also Maurice Louche, well known historian, book publisher, he is preparing a follow up of Emotion Ferrari covering the following years up to 1972. As his first book is an incredible reference for all collectors, and his Tour Auto book too ( I have the 2 editions) this one will be a must. Also bought 2 of the most expensive books one can dream of, the Monoposto Alfa of Simon Moore ( but his 2.9 and 2.3 books are jewels) and a 3 volume book on Alfa 6C where there is one page on my car...but each of them were in the 450USD range,,,good I did not stay too long in Paris!! Short summary, sorry can't post pictures, I am on the move but I am sure when Nicolas ( Arthomobiles) will post we will have a full coverage.
