Out the box track street cars | FerrariChat

Out the box track street cars

Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by boxerman, Feb 23, 2015.

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  1. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    In the 21st century cars have gotten so fast and roads so crowded/policed that to enjoy any cars real performance the track is the place to go. There is also an explosion in track events toi cater tot his.

    This gives rise to the trackday special car, either somethign built for trcakdays like a radical, or in many cases a special street car which the mnaufacturer claims is a trackable.

    In reality most "perfoprmance" streetcars are capable of little more than one or two fast laps before they wilt. The new corvette z06 being a prime example.

    Seems like if you want out the box(meaning minmal mods like pads and fluids) your choices are
    Lotus elise (out of prod USA)
    Porches Gt3's
    Z28 (possibly too heavy for tires to last)
    Nismo GTR(with all that weigth do they really work on track?)
    Speciale (if you can offord the running costs)
    Maclaren 650s?
    Older z06 (these seem robust with some brake lines and pads)
    Vipers
    Miatas
    Some Minis
    Older BMWs (E30 E36 E46)modded for track

    Comming down the pike soon

    Mustang Gt350r, could these be replacing older M3s as the track car of choice
    For GT (its really a track car)
    New Miata
    cayman Gt4
    BMW M2/2M
    New z28

    We also have componant cars which are notionaly street legal.

    SPF Gt40
    Rossion( although these are rearely sorted to run on track)
    Atoms
    Caterhams


    When you look at the above lists, one relaises that most manufacturers are selling alleged track performance, very few actualy build cars that can hold up to a reasonable day of tracking.
    New BMWS M3/4 are really heavy and marshmellow on track despite putting decent one lap times up due to sheer power.

    Seems like the street lega/useablel trackday special is a growing niche market, also seems like many manufacturers are happy to sell a car that can do one fast lap, because that is how mgagazines test.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

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    Nobles, Cayman and Boxster, FRS/BRZ and any number of slightly older cars with upgraded brake pads.

    Cost is the issue, even with a 'cheap' car you're talking close to a grand for a weekend at the track all in, so most are happy with good paper numbers and don't bother with the track.
     
  3. Heat Seeker WS6

    Heat Seeker WS6 Formula 3

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    Speaking to HPDE's, I've been doing them since 2000 and I've seen all the cars listed above (minus the Speciale & 650 yet) with varying amounts of mods and all have lasted entire 2 day events. Although the vast majority of HPDE drivers aren't running the car to their maximum potential either.

    My last student had a stock '10 SS and we ran that thing hard and yeah we killed its pads by the end but it certainly held up well.

    I can also say that the pig GTR with all its pudginess does hold up well too.
     
  4. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Perhaps I should define the criteria better bevause pretty much, any street car with enough mods will run at the track.

    Lets say then a car that out the box, with high temp brake fluid and pads can run all day long at the track while being lean't on by someone who can drive.(ie not astudent at 7/10ths) A car that slicks can be easily added to without further mods.

    The two I know of in this category are a 997 Gt3 and lotus. the 997 Gt3 is a car that can truly be driven to the track hammered on all day and driven home. Loti qualify as do Minis and possibly some C6 vettes if you also change the brake lines.

    If the car has space to stow a jack, track wheels and tires even better, or the ability to tow a small trailer with said wheels.

    While some moderns like a z28 probably qualify with just a pad and fluid change, their R compund tires are 2k a set and wont last a hard long day, so track wheels and tires are a must, but those will fit in back, as in a mini.

    The critreria then is street legal buyable from a dealer, trackable out the box with say less than 1k in upgrades not counting tires, and an ability to track without needing serious work beyong basic maintanance and regular fluids for a few years say 10k miles.. So besides track times they need proper cooling of all vital parts, from mtor to tranny to brakes.

    Maybe GTRs qualify, but all that weight has got to melt tires, and the computer driven car is an aquired taste.

    Pity then that the new vette for all its viceral street entertainment, cant last more than 2 laps without diualing back power and or going into high temp, its a pretender tot eh throne, as are pretty much every modern lamborghini.

    The cayman Gt4 seems ideal spec, not too tech so its probably durable, shoudl be great on street and decent enough on track, the mustang GT350R also looks very promising.

    Basicaly what comes after my spec is a car that arrives on a trailer, but then that is a different level of comitement as I well know.


    IMO lots of so called street/track cars are pretenders, they willoverheat somethign and or wilt with any serious track work. Butr there are a few real contenders out there.

    If magazines published the average laptime over say a 15 lap run, we would get a bette picture too, and manufactuers may change some development crinteria.
     
  5. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

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    I don't see the need. You won't find a set of street tires that will run consistent lap times for 15 laps at full chat, so why care that the rest of the car will run for that many when you'll have to slow to cool the tires? The only competition you could do in these cars in stock form are time trials which is the fastest single lap anyway. For any more than that, you're adding a cage, fire suppression etc. I have no issue running 4 or 5 hard laps and then slowing for a lap to let things cool. I have to do that with street tires anyway or they get too greasy, and if you're running r comps you only get 2-3 golden laps out of them, so if you have to cool the car every 5 laps it's not a big deal IMO. I'm not sure what your use case is that you need a stock car to run hard for 10 to 15 straight laps, but I haven't really seen it. That is unless you really want to run a whole 30 minute track session flat out with no break, but honestly one lap off to cool things down every ten minutes is nbd. That's 2 cool down laps per session.
     
  6. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Im a C5zo6 racer. It was more capable out of the box than anything corvette has produced before or since. We vette people cry over the cr@p that is the new z06 after so much promise that was the c7. No respecting track guy will buy a new z06. That said there is no out of the box production car that can survive a simple 30 min track session. Brakes and cooling are 90% of these cars problems.
     
  7. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #7 boxerman, Feb 24, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015

    Lots of people drive to the track, use suitable pads fuids and swap to slicks. Seen it on Mustang laguna seccas, minis, Loti, Porche, vettes, camaros, older BMws etc wuth no issues. The motor cooling brakes etc are up to it, well maybe not BMW brakes.

    My point is the new Z06 would not be up to it, nor would any number of newer BMWs.

    As to cooling down, every car short of an all out race car has to be driven at a sustainable pace, some laps will naturaly be a bit slower. But one or two 90% laps here and there and the rest 95-98% is very different comapred to a car that cant run more than 85% after lap 1.

    I agree about tires, but lets assume they are all running hoosiers on track, thats why i said space to put your track tires in back somewhere.

    Go to any serious DE event and other than beginner clasees this is how people run. There are more and more of these events, and manufacturers are making cars supposedly capable of handling this spec. Its not racing, but its hard runnign for say 5 30 min sessions per day.

    Porche 997Gt3's Loti, miata Minis and older vettes seem to be up to this, many other cars promise but cant really sustain. Porche seemed to build to this spec, thats why you can get cf racing bukes half cages harnesses etc from porche.

    My point is magazines should test 15 lap averages even if they use track tires. Otherwise so called performance specs are really bogus, you cant use the performance on the street, and if it cant sustain on track what exactly are you buying, bragging rights to a one lap wonder?

    More to the point, lots of people are buying street cars which they take to the track on weekends as a means of enjoying the performance, high speed recreation, there should be a minimal spec for this in terms of testing. It seems this is the spec the z28 was built towards, cayman Gt4 and new mustang Gt350R.

    You cant use your fast car anywhere near its limit on the street anymore, thats why we want fast cars that are entertainign and viceral to drive at 7/10ths on street, you know cars full of feel etc, and we want that same car to be able to run hard on track whenever we get there.

    Look at all the track clubs, De events and track country clubs, its an expolsion of use. What street cars can handle this, and what street cars are bogus spec. also if acar has the bones to sustainably run hard at DE events, it can fairly easily be developed into a racer, witness the GT3 c5 vette and loti..
     
  8. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Agreed, yet Gm claims the c7 is the most track capable ever
     
  9. Todd308TR

    Todd308TR F1 World Champ

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    #9 Todd308TR, Feb 24, 2015
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    What has happened with C7Z06?

    I tracked the hell out of my C5 Z06, all I did was run air hoses to the front brakes, high temp brake fluid, and changed out the aluminum front caliper pistons for stainless steel.

    I also took driving/'Ring lessons those are what really made the difference.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  10. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    The C7 z06 appart from being lardy appears to overheat after one fast lap, and the computer dials back power after one fast lap, meaning real performance is significantly less than advertised.
     
  11. rlips

    rlips Formula Junior

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    I had a 997.2 GT3. Did 50 track days in one year. Mods: Had to replace the drop links (Stock ones broke 1st day out), track alignment (rotate strut towers to get enough camber), track pads, track fluid, roll bar, harness.

    Had 3 sets of wheels, two with Hoosier R6s for the track and one with Pilot Sport 2's for the road.

    Overall, it held up well, and we were in the low 2:00's (2:03 -2:06) at the Glenn, 1:26-1:28 njmp t-bolt. Not pro times, but not green student times either.

    The one problem was the center lock system....it was always of concern and showed a lot of wear. I believe there is now a service bulletin to replace parts of this system after so many track miles. No engine issues, no brake issue (but it did eat rotors and pads---fast!), no rattles or anything problematic. Traded it in at 9800 miles after one year, 8500 of them track miles.


    Now running a Lotus Cup car. While not a street car, it's very close to one . Absolutely reliable, over 75 days and had a clutch failure. Other than that, no issues.


    I imagine the Cayman GT4 will be perfect for track work.
     
  12. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #12 boxerman, Feb 24, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
    My use sounds very similar to yours except maybe only 20 days per year.

    Yep interesting realtime feedback. Never heard anyone who tracked their GT3 have anythign good to say about the centerlocks. An exampole of marketing putting soimethign ona car for the street crowd to believe its a "real" race car and charging extra.

    Seems like the Gt4 is picking up where the Gt3 mantle left off when it became a marketing car.

    Lotus cup 255 pretty much the street car, minus airbags ac and lights.

    interesting you went to a lotus, the 997Gt3 seems the holy grail, but I guess they are 1500 per day to run on track when you add it all up.

    For myself keepign the elise for short tracks, and finishing up a SPF Gt40 for long tracks.

    Still the idea of somethign like a Gt350R that you can bond with on street, drive to tracks and rive home has some future appealm, as much as I dont mind towing it can be pain and sometimes you just wnat to hop in and go for a few hours.

    Which tracks do you run.
     
  13. Crawler

    Crawler F1 Veteran

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    #13 Crawler, Feb 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  14. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Yep like the mini ticks a lot of boxes, fast, durable, nice feedback and you can bring your track wheels along. Had an orgional GTI may years ago.

    the new Golf R looks to be a future cult classic.
     
  15. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

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    Bringing track wheels along basically rules out any serious sports car (including Loti). Most of the serious guys, with a few exceptions, trailer the car if they're running slicks. I saw one corvette trailer his tires in with a little trailer, but that was at an autox. The rest either run street tires or trailer their car.

    I think I see what you're getting at, and what it boils down to is that there is a very narrow window of cars that are an ideal mix for you. My ideas of a dual purpose car are decidedly different, I want one that is more focused so is less 'convenient' in terms of being able to carry the tires there and needing different preparation. I'd rather be driving a Ferrari on the street and track than a GTI or Golf R (or mini), and will adjust my expectations and preparation accordingly, even if it can't carry it's slicks with it and has to be trailered.

    Fwiw, a c7 z06 at 85% engine power will be light years faster than most other cars and doesn't mean you have to drive the rest of the car at 85%...
     
  16. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #16 boxerman, Feb 24, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
    I trailer my car, so I can have tools, spares, tires and a comfortable ride home. At home I just change the wheels and shock settings and am good to go for the street, lots of people do this. I have seen a ford Gt and numerous vettes towing little trailers with tires. I have seen ferraris and even amg mercs arrive on trailers. Lots of peopel track their street cars these days, its not racing, but its pace is not necessarily far off..

    What I am getting at, is that if manufacturers are going to be sellign a car as "track capable" tires and pads aside it should be track capable. That means cooling, disks and calipers, not to emtion springs and shocks up to the task. Anyone seriously on track will change fluids for track and pads.

    If a computer has to dial back power seriously for the car to live on track, then its performance stats shoudl reflect that dialed back power. The new z07 claims fantastic laptimes, but they are unsustainable past lap 1. A ferrari 458 or porche GT3 has sustainable laptimes(based on tire life), as does a lotus or c6 vette.

    If I am gfoing to the track with a car I need to know that it can happily survive a day there, without leaks overheating blowing a motor, warpind disks or using some saftly limp mode to survive.

    As to tires, yes I think it should be part of the testing procedure, how long do tires last. For example great as I think the z28 or GTR may be, their weight indicates that the tires wont last long, so real laptimes are going to be quite a bit slower after the first few, and a day at the track in these cars may just be a theory. This is applicable whetehr you run slicks or R compouds, weigth kills tires, although you can always have wider tires.

    Now some here say a GTR lasts just fine, and maybe the awd saves tires despite the weight. If i bought a z28 and ran it on hoosiers, could it really run all day, and what woudl tires life (stock and slicks) be comapred to other cars, like saya GT3 and GTr with which it is compared. Because such comparisons are rlevant to intended use and performance comparisons are advertised and boasted about by manufacturers.

    But look where we are in reality. Manufacturers are supplying "track ready" cars new with r compound tires, these are tires that are hard riding and near useless on street(other than in a very narrow rangeof use), yet very expensive and with short lives on track. What the R compound tires do is let a car in magazine test show good numbers. So we are gettign cars more and more compromised for street, yet in the end not really capable on track. They are cars built for a spec which does not exist in the real world of any imaginable use, the spec is the one day, one lap magazine test.

    More and more people are going to be buying fast cars and going to trackdays, thats why we have Gt350R Z28s and Gt3/GT4's. However they may begin over time they will progress and lean on their cars harder and do various if minimal upgrades. If manufacturers are making cars for this stated purpose, and boasting about track prowess/laptimes, then lets have a relevant measure and test.

    For example lest have a 15 lap test of a z06 and viper TA, both cars using say hoosiers. then we can have the street tests on whatever tires the cars are supplied with. That at least is some type of real world use and valid comparision.

    In the old days manufacturers used to send a ringer car for testing, a car with hopped up hand built motor. Now we have a new era of ringer car, a car with tires and performance designed to last one lap, same thing.

    The future of using performanc cars is more and more at the track, then these cars need to be able to perform there, consistently. For street a sportscar shoudl be viceral and entertaining to drive at all speeds. Most moderns can do neither.
     
  17. GaryR

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    I'll let you know how my 15' STi does. Brake Fluid, track pads, and 140 tread-wear Toyo tires on spare wheels are the only real mods to make it more "track-worthy" and will be put on after I drive to the track. I am also lowering it, putting better bushings in and changing alignment for better road and track handling but has no bearing on the track reliability. I also had it dyno tuned with 0 mods and she now puts out 313 TQ to the wheels with a better, more consistent A/F than she came from the factory with!
     
  18. Zinhead

    Zinhead Karting

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    Lots of modern cars can be food track day vehicles. The Alfa 4C is one that comes to mind that has not been mentioned yet.
     
  19. GaryR

    GaryR Formula 3

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    I bet the M235i would work well too...
     
  20. rlips

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    Yep, 1500 per day was about right with the gt3. In the lotus its 500 per day. And it's more fun by far, less work to maintain, and, with a lot of practice, I'm getting faster and closer to my gt3 times. I just brake a lot less, a lot later, and my corner speeds are faster. I drive it much closer to the edge than I ever did, and it's got no driver aids save for abs, so it's all me;)

    I run the Glenn, Njmp, mosport , vir , mid Ohio....most of my time is at Njmp (it's close) and the Glenn.
     
  21. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Dyno tunig yeilds great results, it gets things right as opposed to set for emissions/fuel economy. Transformed my M3.

    Where are you going to run your STI?

    The 1m was an awesome track car, lest see how the 2m does. The newer BMWs seem very soft.
     
  22. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Yep I figure $400-500 per day for my elise using yoko slicks. Going to try some hoosiers this summer, even if abit less grippy shoudl last longer. Coirded more than 1 det of yokos. Later braking and keeping speed/momentum, its amazing how deep into a corner you can go on a lotus trail braking.

    If the Gt40 is too much of a letdown cornering wise after the lotus, plan B is to buy a salvage elsie and do the tvs rev400 supercharger, lower it aero etc.
     
  23. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

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    The most basic rung of motorsport is time trials, which is exactly that - speed over one lap. It's also (besides autox) the only motorsport you can do with these cars in stock or close to stock form - and you won't be winning, but you'll at least be competing.

    Yes, I agree, if the car is going to break down or completely overheat, that's not good but that's also not the case with the cars in discussion.
     
  24. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    #24 boxerman, Feb 24, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
    Its not about some mandated form of motorsport with a long list of rules, its about tracking DE events, exploiting the cars and drivers potential, learning a skill, getting faster enjoying the machine.
    There are probably more participants in this now than in motorsport.
    Its not one lap, or even time trials. Its maybe the modern day equivalent of taking your car on a long hard drive along an abandoned coastal road or mountain pass, where there are no cops or pedestrians. Kinda what people did with ferraris back in the day before highways and radar guns, when driving was s port.

    What we are talkign about is cars thta are the spiritual sucessors toa 250swb, a car happy on the street driven to the track that can hammer around all day long and drive home.
    Porche sort of seems to be figuring it out with the cayman GT4, which is acr built in response to the complaints from the faithful who do track about the 991 Gt3.
    Ford has it figured out witht he Mustang GT350R. Ferrari still builds trinkets for valet parkers.

    Its all very well to build car that can go fast on the open road for a few miles, except that there are no open roads left to do it on, (parts of the mE, south sfrica, maybe the outback and an autobahn at 5am. expeted)
    So fast powerful cars are either trinkets, or owners will increasingly take them to the track. Manufacturers are sort of responding with "track capable" cars except most are not, they are ringers.
     
  25. Todd308TR

    Todd308TR F1 World Champ

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    Even though I'd love to have an old 911 or 308GTB for a track day car, if I ever live close enough to a track to justify a dedicated car, and bike, it will probably be a Factory Five Racing 818 R or the cheapest C5 I can find. If it is a C5 I'll just do seat, cage, brakes, extinguisher, accusump and done.

    After taking a brand new, and bank owned, C5 Z06 to the 'Ring for over a thousand miles my rule now is if you can't afford to put it in the wall don't take it to the track.
     

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