Alfa 4C - "Without The Heart We Would Be Mere Machines"

Course they had no idea it would sell so well. At the genva show they were holding thumbs to see if it sold. Now thye ahve a quandry, because its sellign at elast as well as the Gt3.

others have been able to fit a Gt3 mtoor to a cayman, The new Gt3 motor is essentialy the same block externaly as a regualr 991 cayman etc.

 

You said the 4c off centre steerign coments may be related to its non ps and weight. I am, meerly pointing out that the exige v6 weighs more than a 4c, never read a critcal comment on exige steerign or ride. By comparison a CF tubbed 4c is not developed well to potential, or as some have suggested the parts bin struts flex under load so to retain handling at the limit suspension is unusualy stiff.

The exige also gained 500lbs going to the v6 whereas the 4c still a 4, so not sure what the CF does. Now imagine a 4c with proper power, like a mistubishi evo or 4cyl amg mercedes, and decent sublime suspension, because that is what it should be if properly cooked, thats really the only point i have to make..

 

Cept I love the GT40, rod sift manual, epic power, great balance when setup properly. Not sure why you think 2350 lbs is heavy? Modern tires provide the grip,
True the mid 60s ones had a bit of a flex problem but by 67 that was sorted if you look at tub stiffness I dont think a 4c is better, they already understood suspension dynamics back then, its all fully adjustable. Compared to am odern race car iots heavy and lacks downforce, dynamicaly its great, certainly light and strobg/robust and at 575 hp you can overcomes the extra weight compared to say a B16.

2 mins around the glenn is Gt3 Rs 4.0 times or betetr, good enough, betetr than a 458 for sure.
.

 

I am pleased for you, but I'd bet your car drives nothing like an original. This guy built a replica and set it up just like he remembered and commented that most replicas drive nothing like a real GT40. This would be true as we are not comfortable with body roll like they used to be in the 60's. Plus of course 1960's tyres are very different to modern tyres.

I stand corrected regarding weight. Maybe for a 60's race car they were considered heavy, but as you say compared to modern barges they are light
Pete

 

Pete
Hard to say what an origional drives like, there are really no running truly origionals. The cars running today as origionals are pretty much al, retubbed by superformance or gelescoe, basicaly cars with origional trim bits bellhousings and some body panels.

Mine is a superformance which is as close to an "origional" as you get. The tub is exactly the same as the 66 on cars. The uprights are aluminum not magnesium. Spindles roll bars pretty much all the same. The dash is mostly the same with minor detail differences.

Brakes are more modern willwoods as opposed to girling, but same size and many an "origional" car runs this setup.. The fuel line between the tanks runs outside not inside the cockpit. Mine has fuell cells not exploding tanks.

The transaxle is a zf as per origional its rhd sill shift. the motor is 302
(575 hp nascar crank aluminum heads etc) not 289(425 max in period) and of course the tires are period sizes but very different. Now "origional" Gt40s that still race in europe use a 289 motor but modern tech and revs yeild well over 600hp at 8Krpm in a race 289

Is there an origional car still running its origional tub, doubtful. Supeformance does its biggets Gt40 business selling new tubs to "origonal cars", so like a krikham cobra its a s close as you can get, well closer because superformnace is a licensed copy with continuation chassis numbers, to the extent thats relevant..

spf cars and "origionals" run modern shocks, springs and modern retro rubber, this does make them drive differetly.

Some origionals are 65 spec for classic racing due to easier rules, these do have a more bendy tub and run narrower rubber.

BTW you can also buya new Lola T70 form lola these days, I think it was evo track car of the year 2014.

As to weight, by 69 70 a lola T70 weighted 1800lbs and had 700hp with some aero. After that things went to the Cevron B16 which had only 300hp but weighted under 1000lbs. The Lola woudl be faster for sure at the glenn but at LRP a chevron would eat its lunch. Horses for courses.
Gt40s there advantge is they are tough, relatively comfortable and can amke a decent road car too,

So the spf is as close as you can get without spendign millions for a historic data plate car. Reagardless of histroic autheticity, for me it has the attributes I was looking for, drove great, was viceral in a way few moderns are, had epic power(like a P carerra GT), gripped well. Basicaly a harder faster better looking elsie. Porbbaly 50% more go than a 65 car in period. My object was a reliable good lookign fast track car devoid of nannies that could also be fun on street.

Back to the Alfa, I thought it woudl be the modern incarnation of somethign like a chevron B16 or T33 stradale. My bet is with suspension refinement and more go it can be. One day I will own a 4c, probbaly not the version they make now, or a heavily modified one. Iam betting that the 4c motor with high lift cams, light strong crank, fuel flow, boost and and ignition mapping will be a 7+ rpm spinner with well over 300Hp.

 

I think that in spite your careless diction (which BTW displays disdain for your readers) and your obsessive trolling, you are an intelligent person and a Lotus expert. Which leads me to ask: what weight values are you using for comparing the 4C and Exige S, which MY for the Lotus?

 

Current exige V6 cup the lightest, still 2600lbs.
If you are talking an elise my 2011 on the scales 1/2 tank of gas 1975lbs.
4c what I have read is the Us pec weight.
The european 4c is a dry weight(ie no fliuds anywhere) of a car no ac with magic helium in the tires, wonder if any were built to that spec. in any event add ac and fluids evena euro car is going to be 2400lbs. Plus whats your point. You said that the steerign in the 4c off cenetr is a result of weight. It weighs less than an exige V6 yet the exige V6 is by all acounts a superlative handler and a great steer, and it weighs way more than an elise, also a superlative handler and a great steer.

Been called alot of things, dyslexic, but never a troll. I just have my opinion on the 4c, and the fanboi club cant handle it.

The problem with Alfa for the past 25 years is fans making excuses becase the cars look and sometimes sound nice. In reality holdng the company to a minimal standard would have served it betetr. Its why the 156 stunnig as it was to look at, the so called car to save alfa got creamed by bmw, because if you drove one, and I did it was sub par.

. Berea 8c all stunning to look at, all sub par handlers. I wont even get ito the prior FWD spider

Look we come from different schools, you think a cali is a cool car, i think its a ferrari version of amercedes SL aimed at the same cliental, we probably value different things differently in cars.

Alfa wants to come back tot he USA. I woudl love to see it suceed, the alfa formula of affordable car with italian flair is potetialy a winingn one. They wont suceed with not fully cooked products relying too heavily on styling and flair to cover incomplete development, or econo car motors, yet that has been the story with pretty much every alfa for the past 25 years. But you can take an econo car block and do great things.

Anyway worked on the spelling, hope its oK.

 

I think you lack perspective and consideration for other people's feelings. You decided to be negative regardless. You are dissing a new car that you haven't driven, a car that many people, some likely with greater authority, have said very positive things about. Since you are doing this within a thread called "Alfa 4C - "Without The Heart We Would Be Mere Machines", you may as well be spitting into the faces of would-be owners as well as actual owners who can attest to hands-on experiences while you pontificate over some other car company whose heydays have passed. Why wouldn't that be considered trolling? You should brush up on your Internet etiquette. You are just creating intractable arguments. The 4C is new to everyone and you are not GOD.

At the same time, Lotus only has 1 car on the market at the moment and it isn't even street legal here while the 4C is. If other people were as rude as you are they could also dig up a pile of embarrassing things to say about Lotus and the Exige in spite of their virtues, but what would be the point in that? They would be behaving just as bad as you are.

Your comparison of the 4C to the Exige S V6 is inappropriate. The 4C is probably closer to being somewhere between the Exige and the Evora if you insist on making a comparison with Lotus models. People are scratching their heads wondering why you are making such a fuss over nothing.

I have a birthday celebration tomorrow to organize so I'll leave you with these comments for now. Good night!

 

Gee whiz mate you didn't have to go to that effort. I'm truly touched.

Where do I need to go? Since my family are overseas I was mentally ready for my 47th all by myself ... but heck now I'm excited
Pete

 

So many uninformed assumptions, which seem to be mostly based on prejudice, hearsay, and misunderstanding. You know, the 156 was so bad to drive that BMW kept a small fleet of 156s to benchmark their products against, as they considered it the best handling D-segment. Perhaps he's driven a rental diesel one in the lowest possible trim, and he's automatically assuming they're all the same. That would be like saying the M3 is bad because you once drove a fleet-spec 316i and didn't like it. Also, having driven the 8C for >5 years, I'd find it really hard to define it as sub-par.

After all, if memory serves me correctly, this is the same person who was adamant the 4C had "fake CF", and that the tub was made using "cheap CF".

 

Troll and dyslexic is pretty acccurate in this case ;-)


Real measured, empty, and quoted (by Lotus and Alfa) weights:

Lotus Elise S 2015 (220ps/250NM): 924 kg or 2037 lbs. (ex.aircon)
Lotus Elise Cup 2015 952 kg or 2099 lbs. (ex.aircon)
Lotus Exige V6 2015: 1176kg or 2593 lbs (ex. aircon)

Alfa Romeo 4C (Euro spec) : 1015 kg or 2238 lbs. (incl. aircon and sport pack)

Add about 30kg's (or 66 lbs.) to the Loti for the aircon. system.

 

Alfa 159 driving dynamics favored back in 2006 by German car magazine Auto Motor und Sport over the BMW E90 and Ford Mondeo (considered to be the best RWD and FWD cars of that era):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zON4bWsl2Ek

The Alfa's of the past decade were not that bad. And Alfa themselves felt the same way, they even introduced the 159 back in 2005 in Munich, openly declaring the 3 series as their main rival.

Except the German car manufactures made better allround cars/packages, not in the last place considering things like; brand perception (Alfa's rust and reliability image), model continuation, continiuos innovation, lease deals, after sales, dealer network size, second hand values, etc.etc.

 

Drove a v6 one when they came out. dealer lent it to me for the day.
Youa re making assumptions. I drive a lot of cars. Some are great, some have some great virtues and some are just fos. The 4c has some great virtues but its not a great, it may become one. .

 

Well two of us here have actual weighted our elises Us spec(wet) and they were below 2000lbs with ac. You quote on exige v6 weight, you got me, its 7lbs less I rounded to 2600. The Us spec alfa 4c widely reported as 2500lbs wet.


In any event your comentrary is to make what point? exactly. Someone here said that the off center criticism of the 4c steering we read about was due to weight. Since by whatever stats you choose an elise ways less than a 4c and a exige v6 more and neither have ever been criticized for havign anything other than sublime steering how exactly does the 4c weight affect its steering?


Point is the car is not fully baked. Read most reviews of a 4c, particularily the euro mags and the same comentaries come up, weird steerign off center and over hard suspeion which is very edgy at the limit too.,

Some peopel think stiff suspesion measn good handling. Yep it can make agreat skidpad number. But as we know suspesion compliance and control is where really good handling comes from.

 

Hope you had agreat birthday.

yep vette people hate my criticism of that cars build and rental car inetrior. Doesent make it bad car or my coments untrue.

As a consumer and potential consumer in the end I incorpate certain reviews and reviewers in my thinking. What I noticed after decades of reading car reviews and owning a number of said cars is reviewers are reluctant to point out faults, after all manufacturers give them cars to drive and advertise. But most reviewers, especialy in europe will make gentle comentary on faults or issues, they are honestly yet gently telling it like it is. These are peopel of far greater experience and authority than any of us here.

We have seen consitent comentary on the 4c, from numerous sources, where there is smoke there is fire.

Now I am sure if you live somewhere where there are smooth roads that twist, dont go to the track and need to deal with a bit of traffic the 4c is probbaly the most exciting car you can buy.

But the 4c based on concept should also be a superlative track machine, with sublime steering, and it should have compliant supension, other cars manage this, and a light car should manage it better than others.

The car is good enough for many, but not nearly as good as it can or should be because alfa has not gone the exra mile, and they should.

Now an elise is like a kit car in many ways, bolts fall off it smells like glue the top is a heath robinson affair and the motor sounds liek a bucket of bolts. But an eilse is bought and sold based on its drivign dynamics and driveign experience, thats what it offers and does not pretend to be more. From any test you can read, a 4c comes second to an elsie in drivign experience and in some ways a far second, those thta have driven both report the same. Given the 4c concept, stiff tub mnaual steerign that should not be.

The Alfa I thought it was sold on drivign experience and dynamics too, as well as styling and italian flair second. Yet it seems more a stylign excecise with excuses for dynamic issues due to Alfaness. With its cf tub a 4c should be every bit the equal of a elise or exige v6, and the motor, alfa motors always sounded great, itlain motors they way they sound and go are one of the joys, one of the reasons we buy italian cars, they dropped the ball on that. Try a maser TTv6 which is loosley based on a chryslerr v6 block, it sounds and goes great, it can be done with any pedestrian motor, they just didnt.

As to a stick, thats my preference, the euros want to force paddles. But a 4c mtor and a dart motor pretty much the same, you can get a dart with a stick so the transaxle exists.

Then look at the whole dealer experience, what delars knew what customer like Mayor could find out over the past few months. Typicaly Italian chaos. If Alfa wants to come to the Us they have to up their game in product and attitude towards product. Maserati slowly suceeds, not at being german or even as fast as the germans but offering an italian product that is mostly well cooked and excellent dynamicaly. Alfa needs to do the same. The 4c is not rpetending to be a porche, but its promise is superior dynamics, that has not been dleivered, both in what I read, and from what I hear from alfaholic racers who have spent a day with the 4c.

 

The Ferrari 250LM has weird off-center steering, rides hard and is edgy at the limit.

I believe that 95% of the buyers of these cars do not purchase them solely for their handling behavior at the "limit". These cars are bought to fulfill emotional reasons at many levels. I good friend of mine who has a world class auto collection ( yes, it includes an LM and an "original tub" GT40), wisely remarked that "everybody knows about Ferrari and Maserati, but real enthusiasts like Alfas". I view the 8C and the 4C as Alfa getting back to its roots, making cars that emotionally "grab" the true enthusiast. Like all the most treasured Alfas before them, they have faults, that to those who understand, just endear the cars to their owners.

I think, with Alfas, you either get it or you don't. Whether you like the cars or not, is a personal decision. I made mine in 1963, and have never regretted it

 

A 250lm is a 50 year old race car. I drive a boxer which is a near 40 yo design more tricky on the limit than practicaly anything, its challenging I like that amd make excuses for tis age.

But its not 50 0r 40 years ago. Mazda benchmarked an elan with the first miata, peopel uderstand suerior dynamics and steerign now, Its been around since the Mk1 golf.

The 8c is s reskinned maserati, and not as good as the maserati. Yep its alfa getting its game back stylke wise and saying here we are. the 4c is a truly Alfa, not a reskinned soemthig else, the styling size and concept say alfa is back. the excecution says they are still stuck in the 90s.

the Alfa 4c in many way is a modern elsie, its small light stiff and viceral, its just not a modern elise to drive, or even apprentlya new miata.

 

been watching show called 'episodes' on showtime with matt lablanc from friends. hes a big car guy and likes to show his collection off on the show. now a pearl white 8c cab with red top/interior. gorgeous.

i love the 4c at $55k because its also gorgeous, unique, and fun. no other competition for new drivers car at that price. however, if it costs $85k, then alternatives like cayman, loaded stingray, or base z06 require serious thought.

 

My point is your critizsm on the 4C weight and it's cf. tub; the quoted Lotus weights are Lotus's own specced weights and shows that the 4C isn't that much more heavy ; don't forget that everything on an Elise is smaller (body, brakes, wheels, etc.) and more spartan (interior, seats, etc). And it may not have a cf tub, it does have an aluminium one.

And comparing the Lotus weight with the US 4C version isn't exactly fair; Lotus isn't allowed to sell Elise's and Exige's in the US anymore for the exact same reasons why the US 4C is heavier than the Euro spec version; compliance with US regulations.

 

i know why the 4c weighs what it does. I dont criticise its weight. 2500lbs is still light, perhaps ferrari is right cf does not confer wieght savings over aluminum.

The reason why lotus is not allowed to sell the elise, is nothign to do with crash protection, which is what added the weight to the 4c in term sof reinforcement.

Lotus had a headlight exemption which expired and also did not have 2 stage airbags. Neitehr of these is a weight issue, its purely development costs.

First year 2005 US elise they sold over 2k cars.
last year of the elise USA 2011 they sold 75, so lotus figiured to spedn its $$$ on the evora which woudl sell betetr. The evora BTw is a lardy car over 3000lbs, so it misses the lotus usp.


Lots of peopel get excited about these small light cars when the come out, then ownership reality prevails and sales drop steadily.

Cayman sales int he USA were 1100 per year, most were pdk. and the car was somewhat clinical/boring. The Gt4 is doubling that sales number, and its supply limited. More power, better suspension, a more engaing drive with stick and a more resolved car for sporting purposes seems to be a good formula. My guess is if alfa sticks with the 4c they will come to the same conclusion, and then you will find me here as a fanboy.

 

Not worth replying or posting in this thread anymore ...
Pete

 

PSk is right. We have 60 pages of boxerman saying the same thing over and over. I'm going out to drive my new 4C and am outta here.

 

Your points not mine

 

Ditto

 

Again