Double Dipping!

They look awfully comfortable these days.

 

Just what we needed, a Ferrari SL. Can call a turd a diamond but it's still a turd.
And a high performance hatchback and wagon/slammed SUV.
Guess dilettantes need something to drive.

 

I'm waiting for the Ferrari Dino Ferrari Piero Ferrari SuperFerrari.

 

The Ferrari Ferrari Ferrari is inevitable.


I don't mind subtle homages like diamond quilting but recycling names is pointless.

 

The FF should have been the SuperFast. or maybe the SuperFastback.

 

FF is one name I have no problem with. Everyone can fill in the initials as suits.
FxF migh do as well.

 

SuperSqualid, or FT12, Family Truckster. Optional CF paneling on outside of doors.

 

bravo.

 

Hey Carbon I'm surprised this got so far... As cprob mentioned in the first page this is not a sinister issue, it just has to do with showcars/pre-production units. They frequently use fake/made-up VIN numbers for these cars. I really don't see the big deal as those are never cars to be sold to a client in a standard way. OK, they might have sold prototypes or pre-production cars in the past to individuals, though dare I say mostly not street-legal cars.

Example: I recall the full VIN (inlcuding model digits) of the LaFerrari show car in Geneva matching actually a 458 VIN. Here, I looked it up: ZFF67NHB000194527

What I really find mysterious here is what the cropped picture in your avatar is... part of a jewel-ferrari badge maybe?

 

where did both cars end up?

The California is probably in someone garage, but where's the F12 right now?

In the old days numbers were changed repeatedly, especially cars that competed in different countries, just to avoid tax and customs.

Its a long shot, but the F12 may have been returned to the factory, and renumbered or used as a presscar or for testing..

I agree with Carbon, in the classic Ferrari-world its all about the numbers, no number or matching numbers (engine and car) no genuine car.

Did anybody have a chance to check the engine-numbers?

How about asking Marcel Massini... he might have the answer of ways to get it..

 

I have seen many instances where Ferrari used a simple serial number just to officiate a car - like, for example, a matricola plaque on a show car. It has been debated for years whether or not Ferrari surreptitiously inflates production, and intentionally demonstrates methods of concealing said inflation. This is proof.

It's one thing to put any six-digit number on a matricola plate for a show car. It's another thing entirely to give a car a full, model-correct VIN whose serial number is identical to another car, irrespective of the fact that it's a different model, and/or that the different model was built for a different country.

S/N 194527 is a LaFerrari prototype, and was based off of the 458, hence the 458 VIN prefix. The F50 was built using a Mondial test bed, the Enzo was built starting from a 348.

Yes, a friend's ring.

 

The California was seen earlier this year, for sale in IL. The F12 hasn't been spotted since August, 2012.

Exactly.

This is certainly a possibility and hasn't been ruled out. But even if it's a press car, it's still a Ferrari using a duplicate serial number.

Ferrari stopped matching engine numbers to chassis numbers back in the '70s (with the Queen Mother, I believe). But, no, unfortunately neither car's engine number has been documented. However, I do have the California's assembly number; s/n 186616 is listed in MODIS as a California, so, officially, to Ferrari, 186616 is a California, and not an F12.

 

Yes. should have been named Galifornia.

 

I believe many things are possible considering my understanding of Ferrari telaio numbers and Ferrari methods, however the F12 being a show car/pre-production/prototype invalidates the inflated production theory for this very case. Find me two street-legal, full production, customer cars with same s/n and then we're talking.

 

Well F12 s/n 186616 was a "show" car - in that Ferrari showed it in Monterey three years ago. But it was not a prototype and/or pre-production car in any way. S/N 184475 is an F12 customer car - built more than 2,000 cars behind 186616.

 

So I know that you are keeper of all things that are Ferrari VINS and thus holy...

BUT...

I question the laFerrari prototype vin being based off a 458.
IF we are speaking of a showcar LaFerrari the car is not based on a 458. It can't be. I don't belive it is possible due to the tub and seating etc...

IF we are speaking of the frankenstien test car that was a 458 stretched and was a test mule I can understand them sharing the vin because the car was built out of another car... even then I would imagine they would use a car without a vin because why would you burn up a good vin for something that will never be road going.

Also, I worked for BMW and have had experience with pre production cars and my friend is one of the higher ups at VW AUDI Lamborghini proving grounds out here in AZ and many of the times preproduction and test cars utilize non conforming vins. This is so that there is absolutely no way the car could make it into the public. The whole issuing a vin for tax purposes I think is bogus. 99% of countries will let cars in under a manufactuer clause and or show and display clause. For example Arizona which is not a country has no problem with it because the test facilities are good for the economy and if the US government says its ok than Arizona is ok with it. I would imagine Switzerland could give two craps if a show car rolls in for a car show and then leaves within there allotted time frame.

When importing cars of this nature you have to post a bond and if you do not comply within the laws and regs... they just end up cashing your bond (sometimes the value of the bond is 2.5 times the stated value of the item)

So I stand behind my thought of cars being issued VINs for the sole purpose of tax dodging and importation reason for the manufacturers at car shows. There is no way that holds up especially in the United States.

 

I have a picture of the VIN, if you'd like to see it; I can include it alongside pictures of 458 VINs (so you can see the resemblance), as well as other LaFerrari VINs (so you can see the difference).

A lot of the other stuff in your post is above my head - cars getting bonded into the country, pre-production models at test facilities, etc. I don't know how or what Ferrari does in that regard, if they're afforded any exemptions because they annually import less than a given number of cars, etc. I would be doing both of us a disservice attempting to comment on those topics.

As for tax-dodging, Ferrari could teach an ivy league seminar on it. Brand new Enzos "repaired" with VINs from totaled cars, restampings, etc.

 

In my view, to prove your point you would have to prove that F12 s/n 186616 is out there legally and belonging to a customer or the like. Otherwise, this can be considered just one of those "games" Ferrari likes to play with us serial number geeks.

 

Irrespective of the car's status as either a customer car or a press car, the F12 has a full, legit, European VIN. When Ferrari does their annual production count, by serial number, 186616 will only be counted once, not twice.

 

I wonder what kind of issues would arise if a person bought a brand new F12, went to register the car, only to find out that his vin number has already been registered to another car in the same city. That I would think would be a bad day for both owners, and the dealer, and eventually Ferrari.

 

Will never happen because the full VIN will be used not the last 6 digits.
Pete

 

Well, if they had to justify their production to me, I wouldn't mind that they only counted cars to be sold or actually sold, so the car's status IS relevant.

If they are duplicating VIN's on purpose to produce more than the say, what's the point of doing it with show cars whose VIN plate has the eyes of the world in it? Shouldn't they at least try to hide it if it's a "dark" practice? They could do it with absolutely normal cars each sent to a different point in the globe.

So I'm not saying they dont do it -I have no idea. I'm just saying this #186616 case as I see it is not proof of the illegal or unethic practice you suggest.

 

Your comment is vaguely suggestive. The last six digits of a Ferrari's VIN is the serial number. This is not simply my belief, it is a fact.

Ferrari has always been, and is, on a single serial number system that spans all models. If Ferrari implemented dual- or multi-system serial number lines, then the hundreds of trainspotters around the world would have seen many other duplicates before I spotted the 186616 issue.

 

By that same logic, if it was a systematic and intentional "double dipping", the telaiofosi would have noticed at least some other irregularities prior to now.