how to value a car where the owner did the major themself

Some mechanics like yourself, understand and freely discuss what the cars are and are not because they are confident that their skill set and ability will be in demand and needed by a large portion of the population that do not have the same talent or maybe just the desire to learn it. Others cling desperately and angrily to an identity of having an unattainable skill. Every car was once cutting edge, we all heard how you can't work on *them* (any make/model) anymore because of computers, or fuel injection or what not. As cars age they become old and more easily understood technology.

 

The comparison was on the technical abilities and competencies between technicians; both aviation and Ferrari. If the tech excels at one then they could easily acquire the skills for the other. But some here don't see it that way.

 

I see it that way, I took all the A&P classes through Embry Riddle and have built 3 aircraft from plans, but I am a space vehicle engineer by profession not an A&P, does that mean I can't rebuild an A65 or recover a fabric aircraft and that only a guy who works as an A&P can? I am not an HVAC tech either but I can maintain and repair my home furnace. Point being nobody was born with that knowledge, and it can be learned and working the the manufacturer of any given product is not the only path.

 

I agree with "driveitdaily" that for these middle aged cars a GOOD mech has the knowledge to fix them. (As I'll bet Roger can do with a 250, 275, or 330.) But when the rubber meets the road (I love clichés) the real problem is gaining the knowledge which other 'while we're in theres' have to be attended to. When an owner is into a $7K engine out service, he NEEDS to know what else should be changed now, so he doesn't have to drop the engine again in 6 months to change a $300 part. That amount of knowledge is shared by some, maybe even many, professionals, and a FEW amateurs.

This is a fun thread, and I'm sure we've all thought a lot, but have any minds changed about the initial question?

 

Hey I have my A&P but I never ever plan to work on a single Fabric aircraft ever. rivets and sheetmetal all the way and some carbon fiber, you get it.
.

 

Ok new argument! ;0

Boo, tin cans and plastic planes stink. Most of them have the tailwheel on the wrong end, tricycles are for babies! Tube and fabric all the WAY!

 

Not trying to derail, but I'm also an ERAU alum. AE (Astro) Dec 2008. Small world.

Quite the thread to read through...and I tend to agree with the above post.

 

You seem to be the only contributor that though that was the subject matter.

 

Great topic, I cant believe how fast you guys made it to page 8 lol

I have owned an endless list of cars including Viper, Ferrari and Lambo currently and I am the ONLY one who works on them. It is the only way I can know driving the car that it was done right, because I was there doing it

I also believe that "some" DIY'ers have no business doing there own work. How will you ever have the confidence you need buying the car from a DYI'er? I guess it depends on the buyer. Perhaps the car you said you would never buy hearing it was serviced in a home garage is the same one parked in your garage once you met that individual.

Besides don't Ferrari melt or explode after 30k which is much sooner than any damage a DYI'er could do on a car anyways?

 

Does this all mean that my vintage carrera rs is worthless because it doesnt have up to date official porsche service stamps in the book?? If i took it to the dealer i doubt they would know how to start it. Today that car,even with no service history is worth a huge amount of money and if you dont think so then move over so the next buyer with a fist full of money can buy it.

 

Au contraire, it follows after:

Post #1: "How do you put a value on a car when the service/major was performed by the owner themself? turning their own wrenches!"

Post #2: "It depends who it is and how well it was documented. I personally trust my work over any shop."

The "one reason most ex-military guys don't 'get it' " comment (post #101), as it pertained to technical competency, is what I didn't agree with. However, the discussion applies as it is one description of a DIYer.

You know just as well as I that a great mechanic can fix just about anything, to include a major on a 348. Granted, any problems that are found during the major are resolved case by case and may require outside help. For example, Ferrari service center outsourcing a radiator repair.

 

I do my own work because I was tired of paying ridiculous rates for service.

When I first bought my Ferrari I spent several thousands of dollars to have it worked on. I would get a quote for $1600 - $2000 for a job, to then end up paying nearly double the higher amount quoted by the time everything was finished. On top of paying steep hourly labor rates I would then get nailed for parts "had" to be Ferrari original = more money. Then it came time for the engine out major and I was begin quoted $5000 - $6000 depending on the shop. My past experience told me it would very likely end up being double that. So I was potentially facing a $10,000 - $12,000 major service bill? SCREW THAT noise!!!! For that much money I could buy all the tools I needed and LEARN how to do fix my Ferrari MYSELF!

Coming up on 14 years later what a wise decision that turned out to be. What have I learned? I have learned that mechanics is mechanics, is mechanics. Left loosey, right tighty, and some times reversey loosey. It's not that big of a deal.

Every make of automibile has its idiosyncrasies and the various engineers have put things in places that make you wonder why they did that.
I was working on my uncle's Nissan trying to change the crank sensor. You would think it would be an easy job but NO! Nissan decided to put the crank sensor on the side of the engine block, up under the intake manifold, and between the firewall, with damn near no room to get your hand in, THEN they put the ONE screw holding it in place on the other side of the sensor, making it a pain to get to.
Then there is Ford. My Expedition, which just turned over 370,000 miles thank very much, Ford decided to burry the back half of the engine under the cowl making it a pain in the ass to change the rear spark plugs or coil packs. There is PLENTY of room in the front of the engine bay, why Ford decided to do that is beyond me???? It's not like they were trying to attain a 50/50 balance by having a "mid engine" truck for better times on the Nordschlife. LOL!
How about BMW?
My Z4 had a reoccurring issue with a CEL for the lock up torque converter solenoid. I found the BMW technical service bulletin which said the problem was a failed seal on the inside of the torque converter. Why didn't BMW use a better seal in the first place. The bean counters maybe?

Speaking of. I took my car to two BMW specialist AND to the dealer. One of the specialists wouldn't repair the torque converter and recommended an ENTIRE NEW TRANSMISSION to the tune of $6000!!! The other specialist wouldn't even touch the car. The reason they gave was, they had done the TSB update on a few cars and the problem would resurface a couple years later. They said it wasn't worth the time nor the expense. The dealer gave me the same suggestion as the first specialist, a new transmission. SCREW THAT!!!
So it was research time. After a few weeks of reading various BMW sites the solution was discovered. I called up the trans shop that knew of the problem and had solved the issue. The problem was more than just the bad seal, it had something to do with the design of the fans inside the factory torque converter. So I bought the modded converter from the shop, pulled the tranny out of my BMW, r&r'd the converter, and put everything back together. Several years later the problem has not come back. Oh and the cost, $500 bucks vs the $6000 I was quoted from the "ultra qualified" shops.

Then there was an issue with an automatic transmission in a Honda Civic I owned. The Civics had a problem with the 1st gear clutch pack wearing out quickly. When cold they shifted fine, but once the tranny got up to operating temp it would slip accelerating from a dead stop. Since my work schedule I didn't allow me the time to fix it myself off to the the "ultra qualified" shop I went. They had to have the car over night to diagnose the problem, even after I already knew what the problem was and told them what it was. Of course the next day they told me the issue was the same thing I said to them, then gave me a quote for $2800 to rebuild the tranny, and it would take about a week. Needless to say I told them they where WAY off base in their pricing. The kit with updated clutch packs and all the seals was around $300, so there was NO WAY it costs $2500 in labor to rebuild the tranny.
Off to the web to find a solution, and find it I did. I found an HONEST shop at a reasonable price. What was it? A rebuilt transmission, not a used tranny, but a completely rebuilt tranny with BRAND NEW PARTS for...................$900, and that INCLUDED labor, removal, rebuild, reinstall, and a one year limited warranty, $900 for EVERYTHING. Oh and I had the car back in 1 day, ONE DAY!!!!

One more example on the Honda. The CEL would come on for the speedo sending unit. I replaced the sender and the problem came back. Took the sender back thinking it was "bad" and got a new one. Still the CEL popped up. Investigated and it was a busted pin in the harness. Again I was crunched for time so I took it to an auto electrician shop. I explained what the problem was to the "ultra qualified" electrician and left the car. the next day I get a call telling me that they had "fixed" the pin and it was a "bad" sender. I knew that was total BS because it was the 2nd new sender in it. I picked up the car, paid the crook $180 and left pissed off, because they didn't fix anything. The busted pin was STILL in the harness. Got the car back home, tore out the entire wiring loom, then went to a different shop, loom in hand, that I KNEW was honest. $20 and 15 minutes later the harness was fixed.


Being a DIY guy I have learned to fix cars myself at reasonable prices. I have also learned how to spot complete RIP OFFS by the "ultra qualified" shops, and how to tell what shop is giving an honest and reasonable price. Had I not became a DIY guy I would have been at the mercy of what I was being told. There are some VERY good specialists, then there are some that like to grossly over charge customers. The key is KNOWING the difference. For me the knowledge came by DOING the work MYSELF!

So how would I value a Ferrari that the owner did the major them self? I would have to look at the car and judge for myself, the same way I would look at a Ferrari maintained by a shop. Just because it was done at a shop doesn't mean it's good, and just because the work was done by a DIY Stooge doesn't mean it's bad. Some DIY work I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole, while other DIY work I would trust more than the "ultra qualified" shop, and vice versa. Again the key is knowing what to look for, and the only way to KNOW is to have DONE IT.

That's my 5¢ worth.

Long live the Stooges!!!

 

Documentation is always important (for resale) when doing things on your own. It wouldn't deter me from buying a nice example...I would just feel more confident in my purchase if they owner was meticulous with details.

 

My wife's career (recently retired) was mostly as an Atlas rocket Tech (ULA). I had an intermittent headlight problem on the Mondial and traced it down to the stalk switch.

She's much better at soldering than I.

Before and afters:
.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

I don't care how good you think you are with a wrench, a DIY major is not what I'm looking for when I'm buying a $100K+ car.

Lemme think. Car with a service history from one of the certified master techs at Algar Ferrari, or from Brian Crall, or from DIY'ers of any brand.

Algar will give you a warranty on their work, I'm sure Brian does as well. Brian and Algar will be here in a year, or ten to work on the car again, a car with which they would be familiar.

The DIY'er has sold the car and moved on. He's not giving a warranty, and he's never gonna see the car again.

I'll pass on the DIY car 100% of the time. Service history is so important on these cars, that no amount of talking can convince me that you know your car better than a Ferrari mechanic who has literally worked on 100's of them.

Even though cranky old Brian, is cranky he's right. Let the guys who know what they're doing, do what they know.

DIY service devalues a car. If you want to maximize your end game on a Ferrari, don't do major service items yourself. If the savings in dollars now is worth it in devalued sales dollars down the road, then be my guest.

D

 

I just hired Al Sharpton to represent me in my Bruce Jenner molestation grooping case,
Would I lie?


hehehe

 

Theres a broad spectrum of owners , last summer at a show i overheard a conversation that sums this all up . One owner says " when algar did my service they refinished my valve covers and it was ONLY $800.00 more " the other looking totally shocked says " i took mine to a powder coater and it was only $50.00". Same scenario , same outcome , both happy and two different ways to get there. True story


1994 ferrari 348 spider , third owner purchased may 2013 w/ 27804 miles

 

I bought my first Ferrari a 348 spider from a dealer who did the service. This was appropriate for the 1st experience with an exotic. Subsequently it matters less to me for a model like a 348 maybe even a 355. For a more modern Ferrari I might not be so tolerant regarding who did the services. Honestly, and this is nothing on Brian's shop experience or reputation which is high, but in shopping for another 348 or 355 I wouldn't care about who did the last major. If it was a 430 that's a different story.

Now once our 348s become 100k cars all this may change. Buyers will want this kind of documentation to insure their purchase decision. Some of us might not care but certainly the uninitiated will.

My experience with FNA services is mixed due to the age of the 348 and 355. They simply don't have the knowledge base we enthusiasts have and in some cases they may not even have a mechanic who has worked on one in the past year. It's not their customer base. For now I'm okay with DIY 348s and 355 except for the valve guides - that is where I'd want an real.expert involved. This will be the case until the cars represent a more substantial investment,.

 

You could pour $2 buck chuck wine into an expensive bottle and the vast majority of people couldn't tell the difference. They would see the $150 price tag then go on to RAVE about how "fantastic" and "aromatic" it is. "Look at how long the fingers are, and how it coats the glass", "the floral, somewhat fruity effervescence, with a hint of tartness". Bla bla bla bla bla blaaaaaaa.

Some people think that just because wine is expensive, or name brand means it's good.

NOT!!!!

Same deal with "uber qualified" Ferrari service. It's my opinion the vast majority of owners couldn't tell the difference, especially the ones that don't know how to work on their car.

 

Lol. , and the zymol wax thats costs $1000.00 shines way better , right??

Oh , theres a whole new controversy will cars only waxed with zymol concours be worth more ?

We already know cars with interiors treated with phillipo berio are worth less . Lol


1994 ferrari 348 spider , third owner purchased may 2013 w/ 27804 miles

 

I once walked into a used car dealer and noticed the owner wiping down the leather interior of a car with a quart of dexron. I said are you really wiping down the seats with transmission fluid? "Yeah it looks great!"

Just thought I would mention that in case anyone was running out of philippo berio.

 

Lol , guess atf would work especially well on red interiors


1994 ferrari 348 spider , third owner purchased may 2013 w/ 27804 miles

 

Only if you didn't apply it yourself and had a trained Ferrari detailer do it.

 

LOL