WHAT'S LIMITING MY POWER?!?!

Here are the results:

1) We decided to check the ignition first. Pulled the fuel pump fuse, and disconnected the coil packs, one pack at a time, to check firing. All coils fired (see pic). All wires are connected to the proper coil terminals and cylinders.

2) Unfortunately, I could not put the car on my scissor lift because I still need to level the lift a few degrees (the concrete settled a few millimeters on one side of its floor depression). So pulling the muffler was a no-go. BUT, with some light revving shortly after start up, there was exhaust forcefully coming out of both sides. I plan - in pretty short order - to replace the muffler anyway, so that will be confirmed sooner than later, but for now I think the muffler is probably not the cause.

3) I manually held the throttle lever wide open at the carbs. Pedal went right to the floor when my friend stepped on it. Did it the opposite way, and when he floored it, there was no play left in the throttle cable. Visually confirmed by looking down the throats that the butterfly valves actually were operating.

* (I will note, in case this is not normal, that when holding the carbs wide open after shutdown from the muffler test, a plume of white smoke came out of each carb)

4) Ignition timing is correct.

5) Beers consumed. Check.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

My options at this point are:

1) Proceed with installing and verifying the proper plumbing of all new fuel and vapor lines. I know the previous owner removed all the smog equipment, perhaps ham-fistedly leaving something disconnected. Presumably, this should cure any vacuum loss in the system.

2) Pay Pierce $2,500 to rebuild my carbs like new, and I'm told I'll get them back by late July, at the earliest, because they're slammed with pre-Monterey work.

3) Take it to my Ferrari mechanic, pay $200+ per hour for an extended diagnostic, maybe get it back in a few weeks or months, because they're ALSO slammed with restoration work for the summer concourses.

I've been meaning forever to start a restoration thread on this car, since there was so much I wanted to re-do like new. I've been taking pics of my early prep work. Thinking I'll just fire that up and start doing all the other summer resto work I had in mind, and address the power loss if it's still a problem after I've ticked off all the outstanding items to be corrected.

 

Could a bad ground somewhere do this? The ignition IS properly grounded. Suppose I still could have the alternator checked.

 

Grounds are very important. Can you tell where the ground lead on DFU's goes to?

 

If I understand which end of the lead you're referring to, it is shown in the left foreground of my last picture above (the pic with the arc-ing spark). He fastened it down on the frame under the harness clamp. The other DFU ground goes to another spot a few more inches rearward (out of the photo frame) on that same member.

FWIW, I was thinking another ground elsewhere on the car that might cause a power drain, perhaps not just exclusive to the ignition. Remember, because of Chicago snow conditions, I never drove this car before the new ignition went in. Since I bought it in March 2014, it's been in storage and in various mechanic shops in having minor work done. I think my PPI would have noticed a huge power loss, but if he tested it on normal surface roads, it can go the normal speed limits, so maybe this is a pre-existing condition.

 

To be sure you can measure the temperature of the exaust manifold for each cylinder with an infrared thermometer. Just to be sure all are firing. if so you can try a good fuel sytem cleaner if the problem is related to old fuel.

 

Can you put that stuff in carb cars? I keep seeing fuel system cleaners for injected cars. Was considering just removing the carbs and soaking them in carb cleaner, in case something is gummed up. May also look into the floats, as it still conceivably could be a mixture problem.

 

I hate to sound like a broken record, but have you looked at your spark plugs yet? I find there is a lot of diagnostic information to be found by looking at them. Just my dumb opinion.

 

They're brand new plugs on brand new wires, installed by one of Electromotive's top installers, and we've confirmed the coils are properly wired and firing. I figured, given that, it was a fair assumption that the plugs are firing, but Nick DID mention to pull one from each bank and compare. I'll make that my Wednesday exploration....

 

Sounds like you are making progress. I think you can count out the ignition, now it fuel and air. If you are going to rebuild the carbs, make sure you replace the bearings with sealed bearings, available from Pierce Manifolds. Although you may grease the old bearings, eventually the grease will allow some air to enter the carbs which now will disrupt the mixture. The sealed bearings will prevent this.

 

Yeah, I'm familiar with the open bearing problem. Since I just bought all new gaskets and jets, I'm debating whether to check the floats, then clean and rebuild them myself, or definitively put the car out of commission for an extended period and send it to Pierce.

 

Rebuilding the carbs is definitely possible if you do some homework, get a manual and research the procedures. There are some excellent posts and even a video of one being rebuilt. Its important to keep things organized, take notes and pictures and especially with the linkage on each end. I took things apart, placed then in order and then took pictures of the assembly. I found that the trickiest part was removing the throttle plate screws (grinding the ends) and then removing the bearings from each end. The danger is that the long throttle shaft can be easily bent because the slots that hold the throttle plates make the shaft flexible. There is a definite procedure and order on removing the bearings from the body and then removing the bearings from the shafts. Its also important to check the flatness of the bottom of the main body. Over tightening the bases can warp them which creates a vacuum leak.

I used Simple Green Aviation formula to soak them and get them clean. They come out so shiny, but then they go back on the engine and slowly get dirty again.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

It is an assumption, but at this point I'd prove it. I'd run the engine for half a minute and then pull the plugs. The cold ones aren't burning fuel. The ones that smell like fuel or look wet are a good place to start looking for problems. Are you still running extenders? Those stupid things fail all the time.

 

Was so frustrated that I took a night off, BUUUT of course had to mosey into the garage to say hi for a minute

Noticed something I didn't pick up on yesterday. Indeed, the throttles open all the way with the pedal to the floor, and manually at the carb. But that may not be the whole story. Take a look at this sequence of three pics that I took. It appears the throttle cable at idle is so tired and stretched out, it's catching under the front passenger carb on its return from load being applied. It looks like it's opening fully, but NOT closing fully, which I think might explain the eyeball-searing fuel stench we've been smelling since nominally upjetting them during ignition install.

FINGERS CROSSED that we've sourced the problem (thank you Nick!); tell me what you guys think.

First pic is at idle. Second pic is with me manually holding open the throttle. Third pic is where the cable returns after opening. There's about an inch of travel left to return from the point where it's hung up. Could this do it? Please somebody tell me that could create a bad mixture and bog down power...pretty please.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Also, anyone know what is supposed to go on that stud shown in the center, because it looks like something definitely is missing.

 

cold start bimetal stuff to operate your choke. Looks like it is removed completely at some point. ( depending on your climate you can do without it anyway)

btw a closed choke can cause your issues

 

What's missing in that spot is the cold start idle speed kicker; you can see it in some of the middle pictures of this page: Eclectic Motorworks : Holland, Michigan

Your chokes seem to be correctly angled to the right.

I'm afraid your throttle cable theory isn't the solution. The cable goes slack when you're manipulating the throttle from under the hood, but have someone work the pedal while you watch and you'll probably see it working as expected. FWIW, the throttle cable can be adjusted by loosening the jamnut on the front valve cover and turning the cable stay. Don't get too aggressive with tightening that stuff.

 

Remember the old saying - "98% of carburetor problems are electrical"...

I'm not saying it CAN"T be the carbs/associated linkage - in fact, as I said earlier, a faulty linkage (not opening all the carbs) could easily cause the lack of power. But as Brian noted, I'd make SURE that the ignition is firing the plugs correctly before ruling it out. As he said, that will require pulling the plugs and examining them. The fact that a timing light shows that voltage is being passed through the secondary cable doesn't mean that sufficient spark has been generated at the plug's electrodes.

I've lost track in the thread, sorry - you DID check the wires for correct firing order, right?

 

"I'm afraid your throttle cable theory isn't the solution. The cable goes slack when you're manipulating the throttle from under the hood, but have someone work the pedal while you watch and you'll probably see it working as expected"
This is 100% correct.
I had a horrible cutout at 5000 rpm and above, it was the secondary fuel filter.
i never been so happy to see a dirty fuel filter, as i have been chasing this issue for a year on my car.

 

I think the next steps are:

1) Go for a short drive to heat up the fluids, then drain the oil and replace oil and fuel filters. After that, the next troubleshooting steps will be sending it back to the ignition shop, which also happens to be a performance tuning shop with a great dyno.

I'll have them fab up the new exhaust, then check the following...

2) I'm told there is a jumper wire between DFUs in the Electromotive system. Looks the same at each end, but if accidentally reversed, can swap firing order badly out of whack.

3) Check that the alternator is working properly

4) If they are able, test fuel pump for pressure and flow

This could take some time, depending how soon the shop can get me in. Stay tuned, no pun intended

 

Before you go to fabricating all sorts of bits, and as has been stated earlier, PULL YER DAMN PLUGS! Look at each one. DO NOT TRUST that they are firing because you bought a good system. I had a race built and prepped brand new engine and I ignored the basics, brand new engine had one broken and two bent valve adjusters but I took the thing apart and messed with cam timing and all sorts of stuff.

EXACTLY what did the PPI say needed work? Was there a compression check? Was it driven or just examined. Let's start from the beginning.

Also eye burring fuel smell is EXACTLY what I had when I re-did the plug wires and almost got them installed correctly, car ran but not right, and unburned fuel was just a killer even outside.

Do the quick checks … in case I missed them:

Run car for 3 minutes place hand close to each exhaust header and see if they are warm. If you have an IR temp reader even better, measure each pipe.

Pull ALL plugs, it won't take that long and then you know for sure. they should all look almost the same, any "wet" looking or fluffy black looking is bad. As long as you have the plugs out check compression.

Double check firing order and where plug wires go.

Report back.

 

Saabguy -

PPI was done by an independent Ferrari master mechanic; basically said the exhaust system was shot, the suspension was shot, all fluids and rubber/filter/hose bits should be replaced, everything that could leak oil was leaking oil, and the ignition/distributors were misfiring. He ALSO said it was the straightest, most rust-free 308 he'd had in his shop, and the paint/interior were a 9 out of 10. Was enough for me. Compression read 150-155 on all cylinders.

I decided, rather than immediately undertake a cam reseal (to get oil out of the distributors) and fiddle with the old points, I'd upgrade to electromotive and have the carbs rejetted a bit richer, per f-chat recommendations, along with new NGK plugs. Also replaced all exhaust hardware and swapped cats for test pipes. The idea was to get a solid running engine, without any fire hazards, as a baseline before diving into the remaining mechanical restoration.

Discovered the bogging on my first drive out last weekend. Joke's on me...

As to the plugs, I'm embarrassed to say none of my tools will both fit in the holes AND grab the plugs. Working on that...

 

The spark plug tool that comes in the factory tool kit is actually quite good.
Failing that, a strip of electrical (or other) tape on the inside of a 13/16" socket that fits inside the spark plug hole will make it grab the plug.

 

With Electromotive there is no longer a purpose for the distributors so you could just remove them? I think Superformance sells blanking plates for this. Might cure two of your oil leaks at least.

 

Was gonna do the blanking plates eventually. Hadn't looked at superformance yet. Thanks!