Who Bought It ?

I actually like the styling. Islero has a similar roofline. Popup headlights are just an 80s thing. I very much dislike a Mondial styling and ingress/ egress. To me, this is a proper late 70's to mid 80's GT. I think the 'awkward' opinion for styling will continue to fade. OK it's not a beautiful early 60's coupe or 2+2, but I like it!

 

$105K is my bet

 

Reminds me of, 'The Price is Right'😄

 

That would be nice but I doubt it. Incorrect engine from what I understand and red isn't the best color for this model. Manual trans. and "Monterey" will mitigate some of this but that budget will still buy nearly any of these on the planet.

 

I am thankfully skeptical that it will go over $100k too. The fresh respray does however present the car quite nicely. It will not bother me at all to bring her back home. Just coming into the driving season for us here in Florida.

It's been many years since I was so passionate about keeping a car. If I had driven the car before committing it to the auction I would not have consigned it. It's all good.

By the way, are there any comparable 365 cars out there for low the $100k range? I haven't seen one stateside for over 9 months.

 

I missed that bit of information??
Scott ?

Jack

 

This casual reference in the auction listing; "- Colombo 400 V-12 engine "

 

Is the motor correct or not?😳

 

The Mecum Auction site actually does a nice job of answering the "correct engine?" question: "Sometime between 1977 and 1985 the original engine was replaced with one from a Ferrari 400 displacing 4.8L and rated at 340 HP, the only difference between the two being a 7mm increase in stroke and 20 more horsepower. The engine cannot otherwise be distinguished externally in any way other than the stamped number on the block. While not a numbers matching example, a recent service by a noted Ferrari expert ensures spirited performance and a glorious sound for the new owner."
Question would be, what went wrong at less than 13000 km (8100 miles) requiring an engine change?

 

...and how much did THAT cost?

 

Although I did not read the auction house listing, I do not recall anything leading-up to this listing suggesting an engine change. As I mentioned when staring this thread, I called (Dale? ebay seller) and car had "just been sold" to, as it turns out, to Scott. I do not recall Scott discussing this engine swap in his nice write-up about his interest in cars and his purchase of this car. Did this information only come to light as research for auction sale? Did you know of this Scott from Dale? The reason for my "interest" is that now, unfortunately, we will not have a valid market data point as this is not the original low-miled car we thought (and hoped) it to be. It is still a great looking and I am sure driving car, but does change the perception and outcome. Too bad,

Jack

 

That is exactly what happened. I bought the car without knowing if the engine or tranny were original because the price was low enough to mitigate that issue in my opinion. The subtle difference between the C and AC engines took me quite a while to discover. Remember, the car was in the body shop until just a few weeks ago and over 1200 miles away from me.

I always make a serious effort to accurately describe my vehicles when offering them to another party or at auction. I don't need to cheat anyone into buying something they don't understand. Just because Paul didn't take the time to understand doesn't mean his actions were devious. I seriously don't believe that he knew about the engine when selling the car. And the previous (2005 sale) auction company took no efforts to document it either.

We have a strong working relationship with Mecum who relies on my research and description to create the information presented. I have been selling with them since their first auction in 1988 and have never experienced a dispute from a buyer. I still stand on the odometer as being correct though. It wouldn't be the first car that had a motor swapped in it's first 10 years of existence! I can't imagine why it was replaced but the number stamps don't lie. But when you study the car underneath and at critical wear areas it simple doesn't present any higher mileage "tells".

The 1966 28' Riva boat we set a world's record price with in 2010 for $775k had replaced 496 ci engines. Sure, it would be great to have the original motor in the 365. But presenting it for what it truly is takes a higher precedent. And frankly it is a more pleasant experience when selling. If it does better than anticipated you can greet the buyer with confidence.

The conventional method of buying a car would be to arrange a trip to inspect it and verify every detail possible. Or at least call the seller (in this case, Paul) the next day when he was awake instead of 11:00 pm when I found the car online. The risk was higher to loosing the car to another buyer at that point so I elected to pull the trigger. In the end, I am enormously more knowledgeable about the model now and can trade on that knowledge for the rest of my career. Doesn't matter if a make or loose a ton on this one. I HAD FUN!

And if it comes home with me I'll continue to enjoy the marque with vigor!

 

Thanks Scott.....
Jack

 

Your welcome Sir.

 

Kind of interesting, I just received a copy of the Vehicle Production Data for 18037.

Original Owner: Elie Ayache Libanon

Quite an interesting figure in the world of finance.

Wiley: The Blank Swan: The End of Probability - Elie Ayache

Color: Bianco Duco (White Lacquer)

Color Int. Pelle Bianca panno Blu ( I think Blue Cloth?)

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2103476&stc=1&d=1437651259
View attachment LETTERA CONFERMA DATI 365 GT4 2+2 - 18037 - Motor Service .pdf

 

Seeing that my production date is August 1974 and the engine numbers seem to be pointing to a 1975 400 series engine I wonder if it is possible the engine is original.

I have ZERO interest in "willing" it to be original but as you all would agree, documenting it would be acceptable. So, on that note, how far down would I have to disassemble the motor to determine once and for all if it is a 365 or 400? There must be some specific, absolute, and positive way to verify this other than measuring the connecting rods. And I am not apposed to that!

 

Learning more now, Elie Ayche is the Ferrari dealer principle in Beirut , Lebanon. So now I know where to go for more details!

 

Fill the cylinders with water then determine the amount used 😀

 

Yikes!

Don't put it past me.

 

Good day Scott,

How did you determine that the block's serial number is from 1975 or so? If this is indeed the case then I think you answered your own question... If the car was delivered in August 1974 then the engine would have been from 1974 or possibly 1973 and so a 1975 dated engine would not have been available...

That being said... the engine could have been replaced by the factory if the original engine had issues and was still under warranty? I have heard and have known a few Ferrari engines to fail (i.e valve failure, etc) and Ferrari would provide a complete replacement engine to the dealer for replacement of the customer's car's engine. This could be a likely explanation to the swap...

Cheers,

Sam

 

As the spark plug is directly above the piston you should be able to measure the stroke through the spark plug hole.

Use a rod down the spark plug hold and mark the point of maximum travel up and down (rotate motor slowly using an appropriate socket on crank pulley nut)
Remove the rod and measure the distance between the top and bottom marks and you have the stroke. It's not going to be accurate to a millimeter, but it will be accurate enough to confirm which engine it is (the stroke difference is 7mm).

I think it's plausible that the engine was changed under warranty, using a motor that was "in stock" at the factory.

M

 

That is why this forum is so cool! What a very simple yet effective method. I'll report back later today!

 

Asked the forum about it recently. And after reviewing the string I notice that I got it wrong, it appears to be a 1977, not 1975. Old guy syndrome. I have the world's best memory, it's just short!

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/365-gt4-2-2-400-412/491320-365-400-engine-f101-c001.html

 

The only thing

 

Okay, now what?

We measured the stroke of the engine and it is a 365!

Very odd that the numbers don't fit the series but the stroke is absolutely 71mm, not 78mm.