See post #12 http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/mondial/494675-mondial-do-yourself-thread.html#post144130490
Don, Thanks for the clear and concise explanation as well as the reference to your post #12 in the Mondial DIY thread.. I have copies of the electrical diagrams and shop manuals. Your diagram of the fuse layout is excellent by comparison. I noted that most of the relays are the same. In replacing mine I went to the effort of ordering the 113 and 101 equivalents and had to go to two separate sources. Perhaps that wasn't necessary.
Correction. I see that there are still two common forms of relays, one with and one without the 87a pin. So I needed to replace them appropriately, which I did.
If you're in the New England area I would consider giving David Feinberg of Ferrari Service of Bedford a call (603) 493-1696 a call. My '88 Mondial was suffering from a host of ignition problems and after communicating with him by email and talking to him over the phone, I decided to ship my car to him from Detroit. I am not exaggerating when I say that he raised my car from the dead! Despite the costs of shipping, it was money well spent and the icing on the cake is that I had my car back in time to enjoy the Woodward Dream Cruise. Once you get to your wits end and tire of chasing parts, like I was, I'd give David a call. As Dara's I'm concerned he's a "Ferrari Whisper!"
Fred Ive reread your posts what is irregular spark? do any wires have a spark? couple things to check: 1) the ignition module connections on top of the ignition coils 2) the is a big white connector under the (left) rear quarter panel (kinda behind the ignition coil assembly) clean and connect again
Don, Some updated info. We injected a few seconds of starter fluid and she sounded like a Ferrari for a second. The problem seems to be focusing in on the fuel delivery as opposed to ignition. We (the we includes my son who is a professional mechanic at a Classic Car garage - Ferraris are new to him) haven't gotten under the car yet. I'm thinking its time to replace the accumulator, pump, filter anyway. We've pushed the disk below the air filter and hear a humming but not, to our knowledge, the fuel pump. There is no pressurization and no smell of fuel. If you have thoughts about fuel delivery, I'd love to hear them. Ron, You outlined my position perfectly. I'm enjoying chasing the parts and getting to know the car. But she's been idle for nearly a month. BTW, I'm only 12 miles from Ferrari Service of Bedford and they will be the go-to within a short time. Thanks...
My money is on fuel pump. Had it happen twice on my ex 308. Their lives get shortened driving around on low level fuel as fuel also cools them. Yes its a $300 part, but doesn't take too much to change out. While you have the system down (fuel) change out as many of the lower fuel hoses as you can.
On a US version '84, the frequency valve will also "buzz" whenever the fuel pump should be running (so you may be hearing that). To determine whether it is a fuel pump problem or an electrical problem, remove the fuel pump relay and use a jumper wire to connect terminal 30 in the relay socket to terminal 87 in the relay socket: Image Unavailable, Please Login If the fuel pump doesn't run = probably dead fuel pump (or local wiring problem in fuel pump area). If the fuel pump does run = you have other electrical trouble related to the things controlling the fuel pump relay operation (and if the fuel pump runs in this condition, you can try starting the engine).
Fred Glad to know it seems like fuel please take Steves advice he is a wealth of knowledge there is one other item that is in the fuel delivery I think its called a fuel pressure check valve so if the pump turns on you might want to check that also
Still working on it. Tried jumping 87 to 30 per Steve's recommendation. No difference. Guess it might be the pump. I have ordered one, along with an accumulator, and should have them in a few days. Time to change them anyway. And the fun continues...
Fred Can I assume that you have rmoved the gas tank pannnel underneath the car to have access to the fuel pump and listening for it? You are looking at the connections and posibly checking for power to the pump with a voltmeter?
Don, Just received most of the fuel system parts so we will be getting under there soon. I assumed that the work associated with updating the system with new components is only a bit more than getting into the testing alone. Good move or just my ignorance?
Its a little more work to pull the bracket off (pump & accumulator) but it's a couple hour job. It's safest to pull them out and work on them on a bench or vise, as it's easy to twist/distort the metal connection hose between the pump and accumulator. Don't forget to disconnect the battery when pulling them out.
Time for an update. I think we're getting closer. We are now under the Mondial. The pump is running but only shows about 8 volts at the pump terminal. The system does not pressurize. We haven't installed any of the new components (pump, accumulator, filter) as of yet. The question for right now is whether 8 volts is too low for the pump to perform its function. We're planning on temporarily attaching the pump to a separate battery and ground to see what it does with 12+ volts. Our in-house disagreement is whether to replace the components now. My son believes the parts are functioning and if they ain't broke, don't replace em. Thoughts?
My 1988 328 has the original pump and accumulator and still running strong. Still... I know they will not last forever so to replace them is not a bad idea. First is to find the reason why there is only 8 volts at the pump terminal. My guess; there is a resistance build up. So you have to trace the wire route and check all multi connectors for tight (!) and clean fit. Measure the voltage after each component. Look for burned connections. Also make sure there is a clean negative ground connection for the pump. Check the battery clamps and chassis ground wire return to battery. Do you have a immobiliser? Sometimes the immobiliser connectors are burnt. If the pump wire runs directly into the immobiliser unit, then probably this connection has added resistance too.
Fred Is that the old pump that is running? Have you checked the accumulator for seepage out the rear return hose? btw are you sure you have gas in the tank?
Don, 1) Yes, it's the old pump. 2) Not yet. It is going to be replaced soon. 3) It would be embarrassing to be out of gas. We added 5 gallons just to be sure. I don't trust the gauge. Mechanics have recently theorized that since we are only getting 8 volts and the pump seems to be heating up, that the amperage has been increased resulting in the warm pump. This could be the result of a sick pump. Our solution is to replace the pump and test again. Does this happen? Voltage drop, warm pump, higher amperage as a result of a failing pump? BTW, my son hears a small amount of gas being returned to the tank. Could this mean that there is insufficient fuel pressure to start the engine (accumulator? which will also be replaced). If nothing else, we are getting a much better understanding of the car and some of its Ferrari idiosyncracies. I'd like to get the feel of driving it, however. The 100 miles it's run since I got it just isn't enough. There's a lot of down-time restoration going on that I hadn't planned quite yet. That's the silver lining.
would you be so nice to post source and current pricing for the fuel pump, accumulator? It is helpful for everybody else finding your post through the search function and using it for their own shopping (even if it was just a snapshot at that time), cheers braq
The accumulator was from: http://stores.ebay.com/fatoneinc. Cost $158 including shipping. It is a Bosch oe but came from Argentina. It arrived in just a few days (expedited shipping). I couldn't find one closer in stock except at crazy prices. They supply mostly Mercedes parts but it is the right one in this case. The fuel pump is from: Fuelpumps.com. For $133 I got the pump, all (so far) installation fittings and a noise insulator. This is a made in the US replacement pump that I know nothing more about. Haven't had the pleasure of installing it yet.
I'm sure many will consider this "ghetto", but on my ex 80' 308 here is what I did. I had a spare (unused) male spade terminal (with 12v) by the ignition coils that only had power when the key was on/run. No clue what it was really for, but after trying to trouble shoot my own fuel pump isusses, I basically bypassed all the oem wiring/relays by powering my pump directly from that location (with an inline fuse). Worked great for 15 years. Overall, you may not want to do that long term, but if you found a similar 12v source (key controlled) you could temporarily power the pump from there and it might help you in the trouble shooting process. If it ran, you would know the pump/accululator are fine and you do in fact have a power supply issue. Just some off the wall thoughts to help in the trouble shooting process. Good luck
Don, Thanks again. This should be required viewing for all owners. The system is simple in overall concept but has way too many components. It's a wonder any can perform well for very long.
Latest update- She's running!!! Many thanks to all who shared their knowledge and experiences. I have a much greater reverence for the machine now that I have some understanding of how some of the systems work. I let my son practice his mechanical wizardry and he identified the problem as a clog in the fuel pump. Some electrical convincing and the old pump is alive and, apparently well. We'll be changing the filter which we found has a 2003 date. Are they supposed to last 13 years? The accumulator and new pump will wait their turn on the shelf. All systems seem ok, including the cold start system. Now I'm getting a bit picky since she has a bit of a misfire. Perhaps time for a tuneup??? A new antennae is being installed this week. Then onto the poorly operating driver side window. I'm resurrecting the leather by repairing, re-dyeing, and reconditioning as needed. At least the leather work is in within my area of experience.
