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No power

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by jackgt, Aug 26, 2015.

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  1. jackgt

    jackgt Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2015
    574
    california
    Full Name:
    Jack
    #1 jackgt, Aug 26, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2015
    I bought this 360 modena 3 pedal as a project to get running again. It missed, had no power, especially at high RPM. Now it is smooth at idle, but just has no power. the temp at the ex manifold outlets are the same. I used to dyno cars and ones with a plugged muffler made a lot of noise in the intake under load. Unfortunately I have nothing to compare to!! If anyone is near Sac and wants to come up for a drive to Georgetown and we can compare sounds, that would be great!!
    What I have done--
    replaced all of the coil on plugs and spark plugs
    replaced the cam variators as they were never replaced under warranty. Degreed the cams and they all line up with the original marks. Replaced timing belts and pulleys.
    I have disconnected the battery and let it idle for 10 minutes. By the way, before I did anything ONE time and after I reset the ecms, it ran perfect, only one time!!
    I unplugged the muffler actuator. the drivers side was making a tinny noise, now it does not.
    If I still had my chassis dyno I could test the cats, but like I said it ran perfect ONE time
     
  2. jackgt

    jackgt Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2015
    574
    california
    Full Name:
    Jack
    #2 jackgt, Aug 27, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
    Other things I thought about--
    O2 sensor readings nearly the same on both banks
    checked all fuses behind drivers seat
    On first start up it does not run well. shut the engine off and start again, runs perfect. After that it starts and idles perfect everytime--

    I have run out of possibilities!!!
     
  3. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner Professional Ferrari Technician

    Dec 29, 2006
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    Did you ever do a compression test?
     
  4. jackgt

    jackgt Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2015
    574
    california
    Full Name:
    Jack
    #4 jackgt, Aug 27, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
    I had it done 6 months ago when I bought it and they were all even. It idles real smooth, just has no power--I am just hoping that someone can chime in and say, I had the same problem and this is what it was!!! I am thinking more now in the exhaust system. has anyone had any luck testing the pressure before and after the cats? Ferrari has made some nice test port to do this.
     
  5. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 1, 2013
    1,762
    Western Mass
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    Raimondo
    If it is behaving differently since the work was done I would suspect first something I did before thinking its a new problem. But that's just me, and I'm paranoid.

    My question is EXACTLY what is it and isn't it doing, I couldn't get that from your posts. And how does it differ from pre variators/ degreeing.


    I would chech :
    Are all vacuum hoses connected correctly

    Are all electrical connections correct

    Air inlet clamps

    Cam sensors connected.
     
  6. jackgt

    jackgt Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2015
    574
    california
    Full Name:
    Jack
    It never had good power except one time. I am going to take apart and clean every connector that I can find from the ECM's back then start checking ex pressure. Never disconnected any electrical connectors except the cam sensors and they are in position. It is doing the same thing that it did in the beginning, just low power, my toyota van is pepier!! It is a SMOOTH low power, no jerking or missing---
     
  7. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
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    Dec 1, 2004
    7,791
    Redondo Beach, CA
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    Bruce Bogart
    I can't imagine a problem that noticeable without OBD code(s). Nothing???
     
  8. deeprivergarage

    deeprivergarage Formula Junior
    Owner

    Oct 3, 2009
    560
    S of Fort Worth
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    It seems like you have covered all the electrical-ingnition issues.

    I would try to check some of the fuel injection possibilties next.

    These articles may be of interest.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430/379882-why-no-fuel-filter-360-a.html

    Diagnose Electronic Fuel Injection

    Pelican Technical Article: EFI Troubleshooting Document #1

    I am not trying to be funny, but I had a VW Rabbit that had exactly the same symptons. It would run great, but no power. Slow rabbit!

    The fuel injection system was the problem. I had a dealer fix it.

    Good luck,

    Jerry
     
  9. honda.vfr

    honda.vfr Karting

    Jun 22, 2012
    134
    Ostrava, CZ (EU)
    Full Name:
    Milan Pukl
    My 360 everytime losts power after timing belt change when switching to sport mode. After engine restart everything went back to normal. It happened once after I did the belts by myself and once as I ppiked up the car from dealer after variator campaign done, so everytime it was something related to engine timing. Did not happen last time after belt change 2 months ago...
     
  10. 360+Volt=Prius

    360+Volt=Prius Formula 3
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    Raimondo
    Jack, Ok, so after coils, plugs, variators, belts etc. Car behaves exactly as it did before u started. Well first off you did not waste your time because what u did (maybe minus coils) needed to be done as required maintenance. And with the symptoms you describe the coils were a good call. Job well done!

    Sounds like you need to properly diagnose the issue. No codes or pending codes on obd2? Do u have a good obd2 real time program, may be a good place to start. Ultimately however you may want to get it to a shop that has a Leonardo to properly diagnose it. I believe it will cost a few hundred bucks, but will be money well spent.

    See if you can get one of the pros to respond.
    -ray


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  11. jackgt

    jackgt Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2015
    574
    california
    Full Name:
    Jack
    In addition to the check connections, exhaust, I am going to check fuel pressure. I did not because both ex manifolds have the same temps. I am trying to be logical, no fire, no heat. I am also fighting Jacks Law. It is not the first time---- like the reversed cam cam that people say "that never happens" I am used to it!!!!!!
     
  12. jackgt

    jackgt Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2015
    574
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    Jack
    #12 jackgt, Aug 29, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2015
    the maf's read the same 2-3. Fuel pressure on both 50LBS. 1-2 lbs pressure on both exhaust pipes. I think I found the problem. Timing is a 4-5 deg at idle and the most I can get is 30deg. Anyone know what sensors make changes the timing? THEY BOTH READ THE SAME.
     
  13. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
    16,591
    Charleston, SC
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    Curt
    So some questions.

    1. How did you get the MAF output? Did you check the output when the car was running or static? (I can send you an extra MAF I have here if you'd like)
    2. Timing. With a strobe? I don't understand how you
    3. Camshaft timing is derived from camshaft sensor and crank position sensor. Out of spect should give you an OBD code.

    I think you should get it onto a Leonardo and interrogate it for real time output and ECU level codes personally.
     
  14. jackgt

    jackgt Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2015
    574
    california
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    Jack
    #14 jackgt, Aug 30, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
    I have an invitation to get it on a SD3, but the mechanic is having me try some things first. I will have to trailer it to him. I have a scanner that will tell me timing and MAF readings. NO CODES EVER SET the main thing that the scanner will do is tell me that BOTH sides are equal. The problem is that I do not know what the numbers need to be and no doubt it is different than the SD3. I have to find out what sensors talk to the ECM to change the timing. It is all electronic. Monday I will talk to the guy in town and see what he has to say. I think there are a lot of things that could cause this problem. a shorted knock sensor? something like this---I am going to try this ECM reset, a little different than the way I have done it--
    The most comprehensive reset will occur when the engine is stone cold – I leave the battery disconnected overnight.
    Once power has been restored to the car then turn the key in the ignition to position II and wait for the “Check OK” message to be displayed. Wait for at least a further 10 seconds before starting the engine. This is to allow the fly by wire throttle system to go through a self learning procedure and ensure that the components are synchronized correctly.

    Next, start the engine and let it idle for at least 5 mins (Ferrari recommend 4 mins, I prefer to let it idle for about 10). To begin with the engine will sound terrible, as if it’s misfiring. This is because all the trim values have been erased from the ECUs. By allowing the engine to idle the ECU can re-learn the correct trim to be applying to the parameters. The engine note will improve quickly.
    Idle for at least 5 mins from cold. As well as re-learning the adaptive parameters, the ECU also checks that the lambda sensor heater elements are working correctly and tests that the purge valves on theFuel Vapour Emission Control System (aka EVAP) are operating properly.
    Drive the car in 3rd or 4th gear with an engine speed of between 2,000 and 2,500 rpm for 3 1/2 miles (no hard accelerating or erratic shifting). The ECU checks ignition, fuel trim, cat efficiency, lambda sensors, PCV valve operation and EVAP purges.
    Shift to 4th gear and increase engine speed to 4,500 rpm and hold for 30 seconds. This ensure the engine is operating in a steady state.
    Decrease engine speed to 2,000 rpm without changing gear or braking. ECU checks PCV valve operation and EVAP purges.
    Gently stop the car without changing gear, shifting into neutral when required. Let the engine idle for 5 minutes without touching the throttle or changing the engine load (for example by turning on/off any electrical equipment or air conditioning). This allows the ECU to learn the engine idle control properly.
    Switch the engine off and remove the key. Keep the engine off for at least 30 seconds.
    Restart the engine and drive the car normally for 10 minutes (no hard accelerating or erratic shifting). The ECU re-checks ignition, fuel trim, cat efficiency, lambda sensors, PCV valve operation and EVAP purges.
     
  15. jackgt

    jackgt Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2015
    574
    california
    Full Name:
    Jack
    OK tried the overnight power off and it has 5 times more power. Finally left some codes. 1241 and 1449 on only one bank. Will check what they are when I get a chance--
     
  16. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Injector circuit #5 & Cat ECU Bank 2
     
  17. jackgt

    jackgt Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2015
    574
    california
    Full Name:
    Jack
    1241 #5 inj open circuit open. I took all of the injectors out and had them cleaned. I guess I need to open and clean the connections next. that is one thing I was told to do with ALL of the connectors. will do that now---

    1449 unscrew drivers side thermal couple and put it back in? anyone know the voltage specs?
     
  18. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #18 2NA, Aug 31, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I've seen fuel injectors fail after being cleaned. You might need a new one.

    The cat ecu is a common failure as well. swap them from side to side and see if things change. The code could change to 1445.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. jackgt

    jackgt Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2015
    574
    california
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    Jack
    Any idea where the ecm's are?
     
  20. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    #20 2NA, Aug 31, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

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