Ferrari Challenge Car values Factory Built vs. Customer Built

Here is what I can share with you today

1997 was the most successful year for the F355 Challenge Series with

159 different cars and individual drivers

competing worldwide in the following series:

North America
Southern Europe
Western Europe
Central Europe
Japan
Pacific
Venezuela

So if you just start with that year's series as completed and add the serial numbers for the '98 and '99 challenge cars (approx 37 produced those final two years) - then you arrive at...

196 different cars that (likely) raced in the series...

Many of those drivers returned from running in the '96 season with the same cars. And of course new cars were also added.

I have 329 total cars on my serial number / VIN list to vet and match up with driver's teams and locations. The total may go up or down a bit as new information arrives from Italy and teams. More than half of those are 1995 MY alone.

It is a fun process of investigative "genealogy".

So let's put an end to the 1 of 72 myth, or 108 total myth. Those numbers have been officially busted. They may have been taken out of original context - a total for one year maybe, or for one series...

I think when all of the numbers are in, it is likely that 220 to 250 different cars raced worldwide in the 7-year series ('95 to '01) which to me is what gives the cars their history and makes them unique and sought after for enthusiasts.

For the cars that did not race in the challenge series but have the complete set of correct parts, those examples may be more sought after or less, or more valuable or less, but at least the public, owners, and enthusiasts will no longer have to "guess" about the real story and can take it from there with this "Compendium."

I just think it is an important service to all to get the correct information set as a standard.

I hope to walk the group through the complete story of the timeline of the series, the delivery of cars, etc. Great information behind the scenes waiting to be revealed. Great Cars. Great History.

Have a good week. I am off to Alberta, Canada...

Robb

 

The motor would not have to be swapped, just the engine management. I believe any road car could have been converted to challenge spec at any time, and they'd just swap the engine management system if it was a 5.2 car, not the whole motor, that wouldn't make any sense.

The block, heads, intake were all the same. Just injectors, exhaust and electronics were different. Even later 2.7 cars had a single fuel pump like the 5.2's.

They'd probably pull the motor to do it (along with all of the other mods), but they wouldn't put a different motor in.

 

Can't wait!

 

Would be great to see, for years 1997, 1998 and 1999 how many cars, per year, how many 355 CH were built in-house by Ferrari. Hopefully that info is in your treasure trove!

Does anyone have a purchase order showing what Ferrari charged customers to purchase a complete factory built 355CH?

It's possible they never generated window stickers for the factory built 355CH?

 

Good on you for doing the research as well.

In 2008 I had confirmed 210 individual vins
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/137652963-post35.html

And more recently 250 + cars
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/challenge-gt-cars/482474-ferrari-f355-challenge-street-legal-ex-waterair-team-france.html#post144007505

I had 254 verified chassis numbers 2 years ago when I stopped looking, I suspect that there are still a few cars left to discover, but not many.

I began the research 8 years ago for a book I project that went on the backburner when I got busy with other things and yes, the number is much higher than what has been published in Cavallino since the early 2000's and repeated as fact ever since. ( it surprised me too )

But it does make sense, there was a North American Challenge series with a grid of 20-30 cars, 2 European series ( North & South ) each with 25 cars, a South American series with at least 15 cars and an Asia Pacifc series with around 20 cars.
That accounts for 110-120 cars straight away, but the number of entrants was much greater and new people coming in to the series didn't usually buy a used challenge car, so assuming 25 % new entrants per year over another 4 years accounts for another 80 cars, plus of course replacements for cars that where destroyed and cars that went in to collections ( ie 2 in Brunei ). Very easy to get to 250 ( or more )

The number of cars left is another matter entirely, there where quite a few destroyed in the era and very, very few cars left in anything like original condition. Most of the car continued to be used in club level events and have thus had a pretty hard life, with a lot of pieces changed overt time from the original Challenge spec.

I believe the final number will be around 270.

M

 

Thanks guys your doing the community a great one

I will forward my cars history to Robb soon as I can write it up and supply any needed pictures

Just got out of surgery and a bit stoned out of my mind now

 

Hope you're okay and feeling better!

 

Thank you, turned out much better then I hoped for
Iherd you have a challenge car love to see it one day

 

I suspect the true answer .. What is a real challenge car is....

Any car that was delivered with the cage mounts welded in at the factory ...

As I understand it .. All challenge .. From the earliest to the last had the cage mounts factory welded

(I may be wrong)

The 98/99 cars like mine came built as race cars with almost everything built up (not kit)

The very first cars were prepped at the factory ready to have the kit added but the concessionaire ,..


Please discuss

 

There really does need to be a book on the 355CH and all its iterations. I do know the 1998 Challenge Owners Manual specifically states there are "factory built F355 Berlinetta Challenge cars." It would be interesting to learn more about the history, about the in-factory production team, etc. I'd buy that book Maybe we should start putting in our orders now!

 

Any car that ran in the series is "real" I'd think...

 

Happy to discuss... I agree with Pete, obviously.

There were no F355 challenge cars delivered from the factory at 100% ready for the track.

Now let's say that again so we are all on the same page.

There were no F355 challenge cars delivered from the factory at 100% ready for the track.

In '95 thru '97 - If you ordered a car "arranged" at the factory (TYPE A) (there were only 15 in '95 for example) - it still arrived with a kit to install and:

A. 8 operatons to be completed adding on to the car by the team dealer.
- Assembly of roll-bar and eyebolts for towing
- Assembly of seat - driver's side with relevant brackets and safety seat belts
- Replacement of battery and assembly of the battery detacher
- Extinguisher assembly
- Assembly of fuel intake valve and relevant lines
- Replacement of suspension springs
- Silencer assembly
- Assembly of braking system

If you converted a car without "pre-arrangement" at the factory (TYPE B), your dealer ordered the same kit as above with additional kit items, and had to complete:

A. The same 8 operations above and
B. 10 additional operations
- Assembly of roll-bar fastening plates
- Assembly of plates for driver's side seat belt fastening
- Modification to the engine oil cooling system
- Assembly of air intakes for front and rear brakes
- Assembly of engine air intake lines
- Shock absorber replacement
- Thermostat valve elimination
- Engine sealing
- Injection ECU sealing
- Bilstein ECU sealing

Later in the series - '98 and '99 year cars only had kits for "pre-arrangement" at the factory.

To upgrade to a '98/'99 spec challenge car, all '95 thru '97 cars had to have ANOTHER kit (there were three options per LHD or RHD depending on current car configuration and 1 kit for a '98 in LHD and 1 for '98 in RHD. So even the '98/'99 (TYPE A cars) still had ANOTHER kit for the dealer to install.

But this time the '95 thru '97 had 18 mostly NEW tasks different or modified from the above list for the dealer to perform to upgrade to the '98/'99 spec.

So...

it's not just a roll-bar plate weld at the factory defining this... So you need to look at the whole picture.

Basically, if it raced in the series, it met the criteria for that year, and was the same as every other car in the series (which was the whole point), and assembled by a factory approved dealer team (a requirement) - hence - "An F355 Challenge Car" ALL the cars were technically converted by the same factory approved dealer teams, ran "sealed" ECU's, etc...

If it did not run in the series, a car may, or may not, pass muster with what was required with the kit of parts and dealer install. Those cars more than any others may simply need Classiche Certification as a ticket to entry since they will not appear on racing records. They may have been converted yesterday or years after the series finished. Since there may be no other proof - Classiche will be the way to go for those cars and they will not likely make the list I am vetting / verifying. And because we are using the racing records - there isn't any gray area. It either did or didn't.

Most owners of cars in the series couldn't care less with most of this as they own their cars to be better drivers and enjoy friendly competition. Most were not bought as investments. And their specs may have been changed to better race over the years keeping up with competition and safety improvements.

With the current rise in values of all Ferrari's, the speculators (and there is some of that in all of us, right - they are Ferrari's we all love) are trying to gauge today's value and future worth. Hopefully this look at behind the scenes will allow owners, buyers, and enthusiasts to appreciate what went into the cars.

I really hate the terms "real" or "fake". The question that I see being asked about all Ferrari's long into the future is:

"What is it's history?"

All of the history is real. The cars are all real. So what is it? Also being asked of our cars:

"Is the car complete?"

"Did it race in the challenge series?"

"Who drove the car in the series?" "What was their number?"

"Who sponsored the car?" "Did it win any races?"

If the answer to these is - "I don't know." then expect a lower value and interest. So I'll do my part so everyone will have answers to those questions for the F355 Challenge Cars that raced in the series worldwide. I understand not everyone wants a car that raced on the track. For them Classiche will also be a great answer.

Robb

 

Bravo, Robb! I couldn't agree more especially on race history being a key part. Thanks for detailing the various kit levels. This may go a long way towards dispelling myths.

 

I mostly agree Robb. However, I think that only cars that raced in the series are real Challenge cars. It makes no sense to me that someone could find a kit in the back room of a dealership, install it on a stock 355 they purchased in 2015 and call it a real Challenge car - even with Classiche certification saying it was all installed correctly. At best that would be a tribute car and in terms of valuation should be considered as thus.

One other thing, on my car the VIN plaque says "355 Challenge" as the model. I assume that is because it was a Type A car in your scenario. That should also be worth something in my opinion.

I know you hate using the words "fake" or "real" but if/when values of our cars get to a level that most of us couldn't have believed a few years ago the temptation for someone to make a tribute car and brand it as a real one becomes greater - especially with the confusion regarding production numbers. Just look at the number of fake 911 RS's out there. Yes they are real 911's and yes they have all the RS bits on them but they are nowhere near the value of the original factory produced cars.

Ultimately the records on the car are what will determine it's value. It's racing history will be important and I think also if it has a plate on it from the factory saying "Challenge" that it will be just as important.

While valuations may not seem important if you don't plan to sell they will play a role in how you insure the cars. What will it cost to replace one if it was wrecked or stolen? I still have not got my head around that yet.

 

Preserve class for those period correct race cars, those dents dings are a thing of beauty

 

Funny you should mention this. My car came with blanks and headlights. I had to put the headlights back in to drive at night. However, my buckets with the headlights have original stickers on them from the series, scratches and a big dent from some debris that it must have encountered on the track. I was tempted to have them refinished but then I thought I didn't want to lose that "race patina". So I left them as is. You won't believe how many times I have had people say "nice car, lose the stickers and fix that dent".

 

I think a type B car that raced in the series - especially if successful - will be worth more than a type A car that wasn't.

I'd put value order at:

Raced in-period
Street legal
Race history
Mostly original
Factory built

Subjective, but that's what I'd value were I to purchase one. If it had raced in period, factory build wouldn't matter at all (to me), so would only factor in if it had not been raced. But, the only way I'd buy a car that wasn't raced is if it were a factory built car that was 100% original.

So I think we're in agreement that a converted street car that had no race history wouldn't be worth as much (and probably not considered a challenge car). However, if it had any period race history, it wouldn't matter to me whether type A or type B, and if a post '95 car, I'd probably pay more for a type B car as it should be much easier to get street legal (since it started out street legal). Top of the heap would be a race/championship winning '95 type A car that is still largely original (imo). The real question is how much each of those factors into value.

One of the most valuable may be the lone f1 equipped car (if still largely original) - it had a winning race history, unique story and the only one made. Barry's car may be one of the cars to have as it has a lot of documented history in terms of actually testing out the challenge components as it was such an early car and appears to be still be very close to it's period race configuration. So some of the special cases may make a case for increased value.

I'm really interested to hear some other thoughts, especially those around specific cars.

 

I would think that Dr Earls car would be up at the top of the list too - for North American cars anyway. He even has a hot wheels diecast of it. How cool is that?

 

Keep it orig for sure it's only that way once
I seen this happen over and over folks so enthused to restore then the market goes to the survivor cars.
Personally I have restored many many cars the last 40 years in my shop, sure beauty's but they all lost the personality.

Currently all my cars are survivors as were my 20+ old harleys. No new parts only used period correct


Nothing like an old Donkey Punch

 

This is a "B" car
Street legal
with race history
Factory built
1998 introduced in a famous sports car magazine
With race car papers
And 100% original

https://www.classicdriver.com/de/car/ferrari/f355/1998/322634
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But....

Not all Type A cars have a VIN plate that says challenge. Our car is a "Type A "car arranged at the factory just like yours. It cost $154,000 new! It did not arrive with carpeting or other standard parts to even remove... We have a pretty normal vin plate. I've seen other "Type A" cars as I travel around the globe also with normal vin plates. That's why racing records win the day. Ferrari had a habit of being inconsistent we all know.

I agree on the Porsche RS example. I think it's a bit cheesy to see the clones or tribute cars.

Robb

 

Here we go....
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