Planning on buying a 458 Challenge-- any advice for a newbie?

Good plan. You'll become a better/safer driver much faster with a slower car ( not that a well driven interseries car is slow). Invest in lot of coaching and track time, and try PCA club racing when you and the coach feel you're ready. GTB1 is a good size spec class, so it should be a lot of fun, and easy to sell later on. Peter has a really good coaching reputation in PCA and HSR circles.....

 

Here's Charlie Belluardo's car. It's REALLY fast (actually, HE'S really fast!). 2.24.7 NJMP Thunderbolt, 2:02's at the Glen. 2010 Cayman Interseries Skoal Bandit Livery - Rennlist Discussion Forums

I have no connection other than seeing this car go really fast. Downside is that it is a 6-speed if you're looking for a PDK.

 

Peter thanks for the link to the Skoal car. I'm having John Tecce from BGB Motorsports look for a car for me and then update it so it is fresh-- at least that is the current plan. In the meantime I'll keep tracking my 458 (just got some new CUP2 tires put on it this week). If I can get a second generation cayman with PDK and possibly the 3.8L that would be the preference. I'll try it out as a car to get coaching and see how it goes (I've never been in a track outfitted Cayman so I have no idea what I'll think of it). My main concern is that i'll I wont be excited in it compared to my 458 on the track but we'll see.

I'm signing up for Corso pilota https://events.ferrariusa.com/corso-pilota/ for the Austin event in Nov, plus have a 2 day event in Sebring the week before.

 

Here's a favorite of mine to that might give you an even better perspective : )

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwJoocek_v4[/ame]

Timo Reger - won the SB Winter Formula series and a candidate for Team USA.

+1

; )

 

First, congratulations on your consideration. You've been bitten by the bug and are one of the ones that will actually place your car on track instead of spit shining and taking to Flemings for dinner.

Second, I respectfully say don't listen to all the suggestions thus far discussing 360's, 430's, Porsches, etc...and BUY THE CHALLENGE. If you can afford it, then buy it. To go on track from your 458 to anything other than a 458 won't be the same.

You don't need to go balls out first times on track? Ease into it and get seat time, miles on track and just learn the car. As a newbie, you're going to obviously be in run groups with similar experience, only you're going to be strapped into a rocketship, so will have to be careful not to run over people.

As you gain experience, you'll be familiar w/ YOUR car and can progress upwards from there.

I don't like the suggestions from others about different choice race cars? You're asking for suggestions about the Challenge and if you're the select few that can afford one, then buy the damn thing!! From personal experience, it's an amazing car and the symmetry to the 458 street in my opinion will already make it familiar to you giving you better advantages too.

and btw... Ferrari has done such an incredible job w/ the 458's that the difference from the 458 to the Challenge is more incremental than quantum. Just saying.

 

could not disagree more with this terrible advice. the op is a total newbie to track driving and it is dangerous to him and to others on the track to start with high strung race car. that is like starting mountain climbing on mt evrest. he will either drive it cautiously and be giving point bys to miatas or will get 'red mist' and over drive into an accident.

 

Do you have something against this guy, because your advise is likely to get him & others hurt or killed. Its not about what he can afford, its about what his driving skills can cope with today, without being a danger to himself and others. New track drivers need a performance envelope that is not so overwhelming as a 458C to allow him to develop as driver. Awareness (track, his car, other cars), focus, "butt feel", recovery, smooth, speed judgement, which of these is easier to learn in a 458? Day 1 on a track in a 458C and relying on Ferrari's excellent electronic aids to get around won't be the fastest way for him to become a competent driver nor will it be very enjoyable experience.

 

In general I agree - the lighter, more basic car with less/no-aids is a much better learning tool and much more rewarding to drive.

 

smart man
see post !2 & 13 above

 

as i've said here (often) before, these cars are missiles.

Additionally, with the Evo kit, the absolute performance of the car itself is expanded, but the "window" is much tighter - requiring more care and expertise in setup and in driving it.

BTW - on the 458C, there are no "electronic aids" - there is ABS, the e-Diff, and there is switchable traction control, but I can assure you, even TC setting 2 can be easily overridden by your right foot. There is no stability control, side slip control or other magic to keep you pointed straight and/or out of the wall.

 

Yeah, I'm going to have to go ahead and just sort of disagree with you there, mkay? (in my best Lundberg voice)
It's only fairly recently that schools and club racing have seen the entry of new drivers in rocket ships - "back in the day" there was a progression that made sense. Nobody (that I can recall anyway) was jumping in a GT1 car and going clubbing. You started off in something imported that had about 65hp and learned momentum driving. You worked so hard for the speed you hated to give up any of it. Then if you liked that little taste you went to Skip Barber or Jim Russell and said "please Sir, I'd like some more". You polished the skills and you went Formula Ford or some sort of showroom stock series and you kept moving up the ladder. Nobody dropped you in the deep end with the enclosed land missile of a Challenge car and said "hey, have fun and maybe take it easy the first coupla turns".

 

Yep that is clearly advice from someone with little to no track experience. As someone with a lot of racing experience, my suggestion is to go with the Cayman and I hate Porsche! It's an awesome car. I have experience in a gt3 997 and Cayman and the Cayman is my preference as I'm more used to mid-engine balance.

You'll love it for sure. And when you get some seat time it will be a smaller step up to a challenge car that you'll feel much more confident in after driving the Porsche for a while.

I can assure you that everyone here withe experience will tell you that you won't regret it one bit. And this is coming from someone who went straight from a 360 Modena to a challenge and now a 458 challenge as well. I wouldn't have minded learning on the cheaper car first when I was starting out.

 

Hahaha! Typical schizoid enthusiast...

Sounds like you don't "hate Porsche" too much!

I don't know. I'm of two minds on the car choice advice.

I do think the OP will progress in a better, quicker and safer way going the Cayman>458C route, but I also think that HOW DANGEROUS any initial car choice is for the track boils down to the approach and discipline of the "loose nut behind the wheel."

Sicilian1 is a good example. Was filled with trepidation about jumping into a 430C right away for track use. Had a good plan, hired coaches, executed well, has fun and is safe. Would probabaly say now (?) that it wasn't as challenging (pun intended) as he thought!

It CAN be done. Whether that is the best way to do it depends on the person doing it...

 

By buying a 458 Challenge, this could be you:

This Ferrari Challenge Race Was So Incredibly Bad It's Actually Amazing

 

Those people shouldn't be doing it...

Heard they lost five, FIVE cars the first day at T3 at Mont Tremblant... How do you do that?

 

Because you have money and think you're a race car driver.

 

I guess...

 

Well, interesting. My wife and I went straight from "DE day in a 458 Italia" to "driving a 599XX EVO at IMOLA" 3 years ago, and we've both lived to tell about it. To be fair, we'd both completed Skip Barber's formula courses and various other street car driving events before we donned nomex and climbed into a 740HP downforce car, but it was still one hell of a transition.

One useful test of driver preparedness - do you lap within 6% of the laptimes of a pro driver in the same car? If not, I suspect you'll find that you will progress more slowly in a car running slicks and downforce, and getting a lower-grip car with more slip angle available (Spec Mustang?) might sound less exciting, but you'll know more 12 months from now, and the 458Ch cars aren't going anywhere...

 

hey Ben

all true, but would you also agree that you (also) had a strong team supporting the cars and making sure they were set up best for you, and you and Christine have both benefitted from top-notch pro coaches?

I only add that as I think those are 2 important pieces to becoming a good/fast/safe driver and seems like both of you (and me) subscribe to that.

Hope to see you sometime soon

 

For sure - good support and good instruction were both incredibly valuable.

 

My advice -- If you're going to drop $150-300k on a track day / race car to drive, spend the extra $$$ to have proper mechanical track support and professional coaching every time you take it out. You'll have more fun and learn way faster. Trust me, the more you improve the more fun you'll have.

If you just want to go drive around at speed for fun and the adrenaline rush, spend less and get a (high quality and maintained) slower car to run yourself and enjoy it.

There's nothing wrong starting with a fast car as long as you have the proper mindset and coaching to go along with it. There's too many good shops/teams/coaches around not to take advantage of them if you're interested in learning the craft properly.

On a side note, my 458 GT3 is for sale. It's faster and safer than an EVO 458 and in my opinion, easier to drive. Of course, I'd only recommend it if you were going with a good team/shop to support it and professional coaching to come up to speed. Otherwise it's a waste.

-mike

 

As mentioned I bought the Cayman S race car (the previous owner put $170K into it in 2014. It has a GT3 front end body, GT3 suspension, GT3 throttle body, Bosch AntiLock brakes upgrade, new 3.6L engine, Motec system, AiM Solo DL system, 2 smarty cams, cool suit, Carbon fiber wing and front splitter, race seats, fire suppression, full roll cage, lexan windows, oversized reservoirs for fluids, and a lot more). I sent it to Speed Syndicate in St Pete to have them look it over, set it up for me, install me new goodies. I'm taking it to Homestead this weekend for my first outing in it (I bought it in early Nov but it took a while to get to me from the Northeast). I have no idea if I'll like it. Last weekend I tracked a Prosche Cup car and a 458 Challenge and I like the 458 SO MUCH better than the Cup car (in fact I did not like the Cup car).

My goal is to get lots of seat time -- tracked last weekend, tracking the Cayman this weekend, then Jan 2-3 at Sebring, Jan 8th at PBIR, Signed up for the new Lucas Oil Racing School 2 day race school (open wheel) in Feb. And I'll add more in between. I'll hold judgement until I try the Cayman S and get more seat time on slicks. But as of now the plan is to use the Cayman for seat time then buy a 458 challenge evo sometime in the next 6-12 months.

Yes I've had a coaching (Peter Argetsinger) and I'll get more of it regularly. Plan on going to race schools, having ProCoach (peter Krausse), and having some pro coaches in the car, as well as track support. Thank you for the advice, there's been some good info.

So far I've been running 2:23-2:24's on street tires at Sebring on a warm day. In ~twenty 30 minute sessions I'e been passed 2 times (once by an open wheel (Indy style) car, the other by a Cup car with slicks). I'm comfortable with street tires but I need seat time with slicks and coaching. My plan is to sign up for lots of track days, race schools and get coaching. My only worry is the smaller margin on the slicks when they break loose and learning that edge.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Mmmmm love the 458GT3 I was blown away with how much faster the GT3 lap times were compared to the Challenge car -- it makes the Challenge car look like a street car-- then I learned the C is a modified street car whereas the GT3 is purposely race built and completely different frame. To me the GT3 is where the attn should be-- that is a true race car.

However who you can race against regularly?

 

458C and GT3 are actually the same tub - beyond that, very different from suspension to gearbox to brakes, dampers, aero, cooling, etc. Engines in GT3 are restricted, actually have less power than the C, but you can remove the restrictor...

Mike can comment as well, but the 458C has undersized tires, especially up front, and less overall grip (tires, aero). The C brake system is a derivative of the street version, GT3 is real motorsport ABS, etc. GT3 is in fact more fun to drive - IF you know how to drive. 458C is easy to go quickly in, but it's relatively hard to be the fastest in (i.e. the really good drivers are still much quicker than the average...).

Aside from a pro series, you can run a 458GT3 in a broad number of club level series (eg. NASA, FARA, et al), usually in the "Unlimited" (or equivalent) class. To Mike's point, you want and need a skilled support model in place for this car.

The Cayman you have is a great car, with a good set of real tires it will fly. It's also a relative bargain to run and maintain.

 

Awesome car, good plan. Interested to hear your thoughts on everything, but particularly the Lucas car and experience. Seems like they are keeping the initial tracks/configurations sensible/safe to avoid too much carnage. Probably a wise choice. : )

FYI - there will be some Skip Barber races 1/9 and 1/10 at Sebring if you want to come check them out. I'll be down there 1/6-1/14 (have a shootout after the races). Feel free to PM me if you would like me to show you around, check out the cars, introduce you to the instructors, mechanics, etc. Good luck as always!