The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Since you have been "back" all you seem intent on doing is beating a dead horse.

 

Truth is not relative. We can use practical reason to determine what is true and what is false, it is not a 'personal path' that each of us take.

It seems to me some people are just not liking a certain conclusion and are getting emotional over it.

 

But Leonardo is here in this instance. Ing. Mauro Forghieri, designer of the real 330 P3/4 0846 and its modifications that identify 0846 has confirmed the modifications on Jim's chassis are not his work.

 

Exactly what accusations are you referring to?

 

That could be interpreted as not what Forghieri designed, the end result is often different than what a designer/engineer wants or believes it should be.

In short you can design it, but can it really be built? I used to see this all the time in manufacturing.

 

He oversaw the build as well. Forghieri said: "Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."

 

The real issue is that the documentation presented is only from mirasv and JG - others chiming in have made it a popularity contest, making mirasv look more like a Villain as opposed to an open an honest discussion. I would venture that if you or I had owned and redid this car in question we would have been called out LONG ago as only a pretty little red car. Let's face it, not many people have the resources / time or passion as someone like JG to do such an undertaking, and too top it off be under the microscope all these years explaining. I'm sure JG has had to accept all these years now, came with the territory.

I'm not certain why you would say it would probably end very badly for mirasv? How so ? Will it end very badly for JG ? Why would you even make such a comment on a public board?

 

Perhaps, but was he around every chassis as repairs and changes were effected on all of them? Every time? It's possible that this one was modified as Jim says as an evolutionary change. Hell, whole chassis number changes are OK, why not this?

 

Thats was my exact point. What he had in mind vs what happened in real life may be two completely different things.

 

Ing. Forghieri was even at the races with the cars. He knew exactly what happened in "real life" on the cars.

 

It will probably never be proven one way or the other unless someone has a time machine.

 

I admit some of my posts require at least an average level of intelligence to understand. Just ask Wayne with the brain to translate.

 

One juicy Petrolicious video about the car would make it all go away IMO.

 

What in particular would a Petrolicious video achieve?

 

That was in reference to possible litigation - luckily for Steve so far, Jim has chosen the forum's ignore function over any legal action.

>8^)
ER

 

You are entitled to your opinion. And everyone else can arrive at theirs as well.

Perry

 

How about starting a poll on this to see where fchat's opinion is on the matter instead of the usual suspects taking their most convenient side? My 2 cents

 

NEWS FROM CHRISTIAN HUET - AUTHOR OF THE "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" PUBLISHED IN JAMES GLICKENHAUS'S 0846 DOCUMENT.

Please read to the bottom.

The following is from pages 63 and 64 of James Glickenhaus's 0846 pdf document. (See pic attached below of pages 63 and 64.)

Glickenhaus says: "I thought about that and recently noticed something. The following is taken from the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n. 0846" The only car in all the Technical Data Sheets labeled "330 P3/P4" " -330 P3/P4 - SCHEDA TECNICA" (TECHNICAL DATA SHEET) 330 P3/P4 (1967) Telaio N 0846 Trasformazione di un modello P3 secondo le caratteristiche del modello P4. TELAIO Telaio Tipo 593/603. Trasformazione della parte posteriore tubolare del telaio per i nuovi putoni del motore Tipo 237."

"330 P3/P4 (1967) Chassis n. 0846 Transformation of a P3 model according to the characteristics of the P4 model. Chassis Type 593/603. Transformation of the tubular part at the rear of the chassis for new Type 237 [P4] engine mountings."

Glickenhaus says: This transformation of 593/603 P3 to P4 is clearly visible on my chassis and doesn't exist on 0900, 0900a, or 0856 as they are built to the 1967 P4 chassis blueprints. By comparing my chassis with P3 0844, one can see how this transformation from P3 to P4 was done."


No, James, the above transformation of 593/603 P3 to P4 is NOT clearly visible in your chassis and I will explain why:

Recently I have been communicating with Christian Huet, the highly regarded French Ferrari writer who is the author of the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" above which is cited in JG's pdf document as proof that his chassis is the original and authentic 0846. Please note that James Glickenhaus does not give credit to Christian Huet or his Cavalleria book Ferrari 330 P3/412P as the source of information that he has copied and published in his 0846 document.

Regarding the engine mountings of the original and real 0846 Christian Huet stated in writing (in French which was translated):

"I have found the notebook for my books about Ferrari, where I wrote my questions and MF's replies. Concerning 0846, the modification of the P3 type 593 chassis, into a P4 type 603 required the total replacement of the rear of the chassis, which was then, absolutely identical to those of the P4s type 603."

On looking at the pictures from his 0846 document of the engine mountings on James Glickenhaus's chassis, Christian Huet stated the following:

"Concerning the photos showing the engine mounting of the P4 motor on "the so-called 0846", I deduce that it's a "DIY job" without any relationship to the original 0846 and without any relationship with the work practices of Ferrari, which I have studied/known for many years."

I have the written permission of Christian Huet to share this information.Miurasvjota (talk) 00:48, 25 April 2015 (UTC)


So, here we have it. Proof from the author of the TECHNICAL DATA SHEET (SCHEDA TECNICA), Christian Huet, that the engine mount tubes from the bulkhead/firewall back on the chassis on the real, original 0846 were totally replaced and the rear was absolutely identical to the P4s when it was modified from a P3 type 593 to P4 type 603.

There were no vestigial P3 engine mountings on the chassis of the original P3/4 0846.

There were no bolt on adaptors on the original P3/4 0846 to make the P4 engine fit.

The P4 (or 312 F1) engine mounting on the Glickenhaus "so called 0846" chassis is a "DIY" job without any relationship to the original 0846 and without any relationship with the work practices of Ferrari.

James must now finally concede that he has misinterpreted and misquoted the TECHNICAL DATA SHEET (SCHEDA TECNICA) cited in his 0846 pdf document which actually proves that his chassis is NOT the original 0846.
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Now that you've proven it for yourself, will it stop?

Perry

 

It would drown out all dialog not directly related to beauty, form and function. IMO

 

My question to those in the know.

I believe it is universally agreed that Jims is a P3 spec chassis, and at some point in time it has been converted by someone to accept a p4 type engine and that the only known missing P3 chassis is that of 0846 ergo the assumption being that they are one and the same.

Could any of the other p3 cars have had a chassis change in period and the one used by Piper to build this car originally have been a cast off from one of those cars instead, that he came across in his travels.

Reason I ask is that reading the story about Mondulo it has been stated that PF built a lot of its proto cars on either damaged discarded chassis from older race cars or on spare un numbered/ unused chassis that were no longer required by the factory so spare race chassis had been built for other cars by Ferrari that is clear.

In period if a p3 was heavily damaged (and at that time the P4 was some way off being built) then surely Ferrari must have had a spare or two just in case.

The frustrating thing about all this is that Piper and his mechanics know where that chassis came from, it is not one of his continuation chassis as they were p4 spec and if an old p3 based one had been snuck into the batch by the constructor with some bolt on adapters that would have been spotted straight away, his boys would know these cars inside out, they have been pulling them apart and rebuilding them for decades now. I cannot see that slipping past them when they went to bolt the p4 engine in.

Jims exists, its p3 based so what the bloody hell is it, if its not from 0846?

 

Just in case you missed my previous request for information, in your post #8649 you comment '0858 seemed to fair ok price wise despite the negativity of its re conversion back from Can Am spec'.

What did 0858 actually sell for?