What exactly does the PCA/SCCA liability policy cover?

^^This^^

My first several years on track in the Eighties were in Ferraris at FCA events. They were great. No egos, lots of fun, great cars and nice people.

As time went on, FCA went like other clubs, but most folks knew each other and as long as it was ALL Ferraris, there wasn't too much trouble.

I was the track chair for the 99 Annual Meet at Road Atlanta and we had 218 Ferraris with 12 corner workers... We had three single car incidents , one pretty serious, but only a few inconsiderate folks on the track.

The event tone is set by the organizers and Tom has laid out a good blue print for success.

 

I've read some of your postings on dsr forum, from that I knew you know what you're doing, but had no idea you went thru THAT! Good luck getting your car back in running order, and hope you have a safe and successful drive again. Thanks for sharing.

 

I had a pretty good shunt at PIRC ( Beaverun) nearly two weeks ago, and if I hadn't been wearing my Hans device, most probably would have ended up with a broken neck. How many clubs such as FCA, Porsche and BMW etc. require the use of a head & neck device, and if not , why not since there not that expensive ????

 

none require it
issue is hans requires roll cage and harness and most hpde street cars don't have that.
there are some that work with seatbelts but not sure how effective those are
anyone with more info?

 

this thread is migrating off-topic, but I'll pile on anyway

1) I've been doing "HPDE" for about 20 years, with more groups than I can remember, and all over the US. Hard to generalize about one group being "better" than the others - some are definitely more organized and "strict", some are more relaxed, but in the end its the collection of drivers on track that determine safety

2) In general, I've found the FCA events to be a bit more "tame"- the "open" track days seem to attract a more "serious" driver profile (along with modified cars).

3) also seems (note that word = no data) like there is always a bit of an arms race going on - more modifications, more speed. Lots of investment in pieces and parts and trailers and tires. What I don't see enough of, for my taste, is professional instruction and coaching, and where there are instructors, consistently high standards of instructor development.

4) as for safety - any time you are driving a street car on a race track, you are putting the car in a position where its likely beyond its design limits on safety. Unfortunately, airbags and 3-pt belts were not designed for 55g frontal impacts or 140mph barrier hits. So, when I go on track in a street car, I'm 7/10ths at most. I only go hard in a (real)(prepared) race car, with all the safety gear. I'm a libertarian, up to the point where other's choices affect my safety (or limit my access or increase my insurance rates)

5) there are ALWAYS 5-6 blockheads at any event that have a (458, 991 GT3, M4, you pick) that are on the verge of disaster. It's NOT a race, it's NOT a time trial, and we all know horsepower hides the sins of poor skills, at least until you lose the car. I only recall one event where the organizers actually tossed a guy for dive bombing, and even then it was after the 3rd session he did it.

6) Brian, I was unaware of your Road Atlanta incident and recovery - glad you're mended (mending?) and getting back at it.

 

Yes. Many clubs require HANS or specifically SFI 38.1 HNR. SCCA is one of those and like NASA (from lmpdesigner's post) has helicopters on call and use them liberally. We had a guy hit a wall at Indie motorsports last year and all he had was a broken arm. Tuscon is 2 hrs away. If the ambulance left and another comes to take its place the delay is 2 hrs. So instead SCCA flew the injured driver out so the races would not be delayed. SCCA is amazing and they don't mix tintop cars with formula cars either.

A hans will work with just a harness bar and harness properly mounted of course. Most streetcars (including Ferraris) can be fitted with harness bars. The cost is nil when you consider what we pay for tires. A HNR is designed to do one thing prevent one injury the basillar skull fracture = death. You don't get BSF with 3pt belts. So any device (for example old R3) that claims to work with stock belts is more marketing.
The HANS is designed to be part of a system...a containment system. Few streetcars and many racecars are not. Therefore, many loose some of the safety benefits of a complete system. Stock cars and hpde cars typically lack a system approach. Despite not satisfying SFI 38.1 an ISSAC device can give some lateral impact support to the head and neck since most stock and HPDE cars lack the seat that will provide lateral support. That lateral support is lacking in the HANS and not needed because the HANS is only part of a safety system.

 

Scca and NASA are racing and time trials.

No hpde requires hnr that I know of and not sure any should. Nring doesn't even require helmet because they feel drivers will be more likely to think they're racing if wearing them.

 

Never thought of a harness bar... But don't you face the problem of now being held fully upright in your seat - without a roll bar - which is dangerous if you flip over? Great way to get squished...

As a new participant to HPDE, I am willing to buy whatever safety gear helps... But it doesn't seem you can really add anything to a daily driver...

Can't do a 5 point harness without a roll bar...

But, can't do a roll bar if you plan to drive on the street (head trauma and all if rear ended)...

Not to mention, your insurance may decline damage on the street if it turns out you had a roll bar/roll cage...

Many of the cars we see used for HPDE are from the 80s as those are our dream cars... That means: no airbags... No foam impact bumpers... etc...

Realistically, what safety gear can one add to a 308/911/930, and still use it on the street and insure it?

From what I gather... not much.

Bo

 

Several things.

Why would your insurance decline damage or coverage if your car is safer than from the factory? I drive caged cars on the street all the time. Every rallycar in N America has to carry auto insurance w/ limits stated by their sanctioning body which is checked at event registration.

I have 3 HANS in my closet but only neck. Anyone who wishes to purchase one at a discount can PM me. Not really a classified if what I have I'm not using may save a fellow chatter's neck its worth posting.

So we used a SCCA event to film for a TV show that aired on Velocity channel. We used a drone quad-copter to film some of the segment. Later, we hear SCCA banned drones and the reason was they are not included in the insurance policy. I don't know how SCCA is supposed to control airspace but does that mean if true and you are hit by or injured by anything unexpected not listed in the policy, you are hosed?

 

cage will cause street insurance to decline coverage in an accident because they will claim the car was used on the track as a race car with race car modifications. maybe if you video the accident and can thus prove it happened on the street and not track. but give an ins co a chance to not pay a claim and you know the end result

same for warranty work too

 

If you so much as hint to your insurance agent that you have a rollbar/cage, you will get cancelled. State Farm and American Family (my last 2 carriers) mention it in the policy....

Why do you think they ask for pictures of the interior of your car when you buy classic car insurance/etc? To see the color of your seats? Nope. To see if you have anything thats even SUGGESTS you are higher risk...

Google State Farms underwriting criteria for classic cars...

Bo

 

My cars are liability only. So if I or who I hit filed a claim, its a 2 car accident that happened on the street and the proof is the other person's version of what happened.

I know 2 people, both women actually, that are both alive because the cars they were driving on the street at the time had cages in them. One was struck by an 18wheeler and another T-boned by a pickup truck. Bet someone's insurance thanked their lucky stars that these cars were safer than stock.

A cage does not put you at higher risk. Just because my car is safer for me I drive like an idiot? Our driving records are our driving record which is the tangible measurement insurance uses to hike our premiums.

Classic insurance is gonna want pics to know the car is a operating driver and not a project or heap that you are gonna file a bogus claim on.

Would never ever ever be insured by StateFarm. In this region, they are the worst at paying claims to have your vehicle repaired correctly. I review 200+ various insurance claims/month. Here, Statefarm is now the worst by a longshot.

Have seen insurance payout lengthy flatbed tow bills from a racetrack, with Armco paint in the damage and the adjuster showing up while owner was cutting the rollcage padding of the cage for whooping expensive GT3 trainwreak on track. It all depends what your coverage says and how much they want to keep you as customer.

Yes, I've seen the clauses in policies about all the various modifications, but none of mine I've ever signed have ever specifically included 'rollcage'.

 

Well NASA has a program they call it HPDE1 -4. Fact is where the risk is greatest HNR is required. When street car are on track OEM safety systems are much better than hodgepodge home brew pieces of safety systems to make you think you are safe.

There is nothing more difficult to design than a "dual use" car.

It would be very hard to prove that joe homebrew could design a safety system for his daily driver better than an OEM with collapsible steering columns, air bags, ballistic seat belts, dynamic head rests, engineered crush zones, fuel safety systems, door bars, crush foam, head impact structures etc.

 

I can email you the schroth safety PDF from HMS motorsports Joe Marko. He is the go to guy for this kind of stuff. much distilled down from Drs. Gideon and Hubbard who wrote the book on much of the current safety stuff. Those guys dis a bunch of development with GM racing and Mercedes IIRC.

But bottom line the no rollcage in streetcar is a red herring. If you don't want a cage you can do 6pts with simple mods of harness bar and seat anchor modification. No one uses 5 pts anymore. Consider proper 6pt no V or T subs. 6pt is all about control pelvis that means individual subs and 2" laps. You can use a 1/2 rear cage with modifications to add slide in elements to a non-containment FIA seat to convert it to a containment seat. Not ideal but improves track safety greatly especially with HANS. You can only get complete HANS function with full containment seats.

Some silly stuff to consider. Would you rather have a crash in a convertible or a hardtop? Most would say a hardtop is a more stout platform. They would be right. However, a convertible has the lowest HIC (head impact criteria). This means you don't hit your head on as much stuff because there is not as much stuff to hit. But your likelihood of death is higher in a convertible. So yes if you move stuff (bars) closer to your head to hit that is bad. But there are other bad things too. You can't look at one bad thing out of contest of the system. Sure a giant mercedes 600 sedan with cage bars to hit is probably better than a fiat 500 with bars to hit because it is closer to your head. But if the bars are right on top of your head the forces change to your advantage due to lack of ramp up of kinetic energy. Think about what would happen if I swung a bat at your head from 3ft. Then if I swing as hard as I could but started only 1/2" from your head? Huge difference in force. One will kill you the other will just piss you off. And finally, no one talks about padding cages. The OEMs put crush structures like egg cartons in plastic around the hard parts of your car. You can do the same thing to rollcage bars. There is even an SFI spec for padding 45.1

 

Cool info. Thanks for posting. Sent a pm.

 

Hope you got it. Yahoo has big pdf files now going to dropbox. Then you download from there. 1st time I have used it...

 

Wow, I must admit I NEVER even CONSIDERED the idea that medical insurance might deny a claim for an accident in racing. That's utter crap, as the most dangerous thing I do is ride a bicycle on the road. Liability? Yeah, I could see that being a problem. Life insurance? Checked into that before I got started. But health insurance? How can that even be legal to deny a claim?

Checking on it now. I have Anthem. Will report back.

And if it is a zero will need to check with IMSA...

 

That's a bit of an over generalization. Maybe those two insurers don't want to insure cars with roll cages, but there are many more that would rather insure a car with a roll cage than not. The key is to buy insurance from the right insurer for the driver and car. My insurer only excludes coverage while I am racing or preparing for racing. Since I never compete in races, I'm fully insured on track days. I continue to be amazed at the number of Ferrari owners driving $300,000 cars who select the cheapest insurance policy they can find due to the belief that an insurance policy is a commodity and they are all interchangeable. Not true at all. They are all different.

As the SCCA insurance, it protects the venue from liability (property damage and bodily injury to third parties) for allowing the event to take place on their property and for damage the event commits to the venue's property. It's not going to repair your car that you drive into a wall.

 

Yep... many policies exclude "racing, skydiving, and flying in experimental aircraft."

They haven't yet got into lawyer speak where it exlcudes "any event on a race prepared surface."

Thats why the 1 million in health coverage from the SCCA is awefully attractive. I still haven't seen anyone post whether the PCA and FCA have the same...

Bo

 

What auto isnurance do you have?

As to liability, I wouldn't expect them to pay for a car. What I want to know is whether they protect participants/drivers from lawsuits generated by other participants. IE. Joe hits the nice puddle of oil you dropped when your corvette engine disintegrated, and then sues you for gross negligence and damages to his car...

I am sure this has happened... probably more than once. Several years ago there was an event in California where the cars were lining up getting ready to enter the track, when a driver on the track spun out and whacked the awaiting drivers in their parked cars. An NSX was wiped out...

Did the NSX guy sue? Heck if I know. I suspect most folks understand that they may damage their own cars. Most even understand that some other guys misfortune may damage your car - though that one is harder to swallow. But I could see how some folks might not be so forgiving, and if you hit a line of parked cars... there might be a lawyer talking to you in the near future... And your insurer and/or track insurer (lockton, etc)aren't going to help...

Does the scca/pca/fca protect against that scenario? The SCCA policy mentions that the drivers/participants are covered for liability. Just curious what that means... I get that you sign a waiver... But as any 1st year law grad will tell you, you can't waive gross negligence.

So, are folks protected in these scenarios or are you flying solo on your own nickel?

Bo

 

I haven't seen the SCCA's policy and the summary doesn't begin to explain just what is and isn't covered.

But I suspect that, using your NSX story, it would defend the track and the SCCA for their liability. The other drivers would sue the SCCA and the track (yes, I know we sign hold harmless agreements). Same with the Corvette dropping an engine. The following car wiping out after hitting the oil would allege that the track and the SCCA were negligent in operating the event because the changed conditions flag was not displayed. If hold harmless agreements were bullet proof, no insurance would be necessary. If you get taken out by another car on the track, your lawyer would argue that the SCCA and the track did not properly vet that driver. If you drive your car into a wall because you were not competent, your lawyer would argue that the track was not properly maintained or even that you were not properly trained to drive the track and that they were therefore negligent in letting you on the track in the first place. But fortunately, the vast majority of drivers and judges and juries agree that responsibility rests with the drivers.

 

But again, would the scca defend you if another driver sued you? I know that track would possibly get sued, but so would the driver...

 

I remember your - "Chat" in the hot pit area at that event. i think we had a few hot dogs to be sure. well done!

 

Yep, I was scared to death after they brought the GTP car back in...

Worked out, though.

 

I do not know what the policy says. I would think not. I would think that the SCCA's insurers and lawyers would be trying desperately to find fault anywhere but with the SCCA and would sacrifice a driver in order to preserve everyone else.