The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I didn't miss it, I do not know the figure, all I do know is Talacrest sold it quite quickly and they are not known for giving cars away, and that it sold on again quite quickly after that and had further major works.

 

If what you say is accurate, and the gentleman whom you have spoken too is correct, then what is 0846? Where does it go from here? What happens now?

 

So you don't actually know how it faired in the market as a butchered Can Am at all.

 

Awesome! You need to party w/the dude in the Tom Meade thread!!

 

Keep the blinkers on matey if that makes you happy.

 

That went down as well as a fart in a spacesuit!

 

I'm as open to the idea that it did well in the market as I am the idea that they took a massive loss on it to move it on.

I'm not going to assume either way just because it sold. That is why I enquired as to whether you were privvy to a price or not. It turns out you are merely guessing how it faired 'price wise'.

 

Do you honestly really believe, and then expect anyone else to who reads this thread, that a man of the vast experience of John Collins with the marque, gained over decades, having undertaken the significant re conversion of 0858 back to P4 spec is then going to sell it at a loss only a couple of months after he put the car goes on the market (when the actual market continued to rise throughout that time).

Dream on, I could have made up any old figure and you would not have had a clue anyway, the sum that the car sold for was never disclosed, and clinging to the hugely vague hope that it sold at a loss just to make you happy in your beliefs regarding the re conversion is laughable.

 

In your opinion it faired well in the market but you have absolutely no idea what it sold for.

Its really as silly and as simple as that.

 

I have had my differences with Jim Glichenhaus over the past few years mostly over the issue of 0858 and in what form its "final" restoration would take. I am only going to comment that I have files on 002, 0846 and 0858, as part of a collection of 1182 files on individual Ferraris of the period, each in excess of 200 pages. Jim is responsible in part for this. I have the greatest respect for his contributions to all three of these sns.My files on the remaining 1179 sns have nothing like the volume of these three.What I would like is more information on Christian Huet. Where and who was he and what did he do to collect the data he writes about in his "Technical Data Sheets". He makes it sound like he had access to the "back rooms" of the Scuderia Ferrari work shops in a way,dare I say it, similar to David Piper. More about Mr Huet would be helpful in understanding more of what may have been going on. Thanks tonga's crew

 

There was a poll on this thread for a long time. When it had run its course, El Wayne closed it down.

 

It seems to be alive and well and receiving messages. tonga's crew

 

That's an interesting comparison, as when sold, it was immediately converted to a "replica" P4.

Ferrari is on record, as saying it is now a CanAm car!!

 

He means the Poll feature at the top of the thread discussion was removed....so long ago, I forgot what it said!!

 

Everything that Christian Huet wrote over 20 years ago in the TECHNICAL DATA SHEET that James Glickenhaus copied and published in his 0846 pdf was from actual research, meetings in person and written correspondence with Ing. Mauro Forghieri and Gianni Rogliatti, who had physical access to the Factory archives in the seventies. He has travelled the world to inspect Ferraris for clients for many years. Ferrari books he has written include those on the 330 P3, P3/4, P3/412 P, 412 P and P4 as well as Dino 206S, 512S/M, 312P/B and Daytona Competizione.

Marcel Massini guarantees that he is even more knowledgeable about Ferraris than the award winning motor journalist/author Karl Ludvigsen.

 

There still may be unanswered questions.Even those questioned twenty years ago are being asked for details that may have happened an additional thirty years before that. In many cases the original files about design and other provenance, particularly of Ferrari factory competition machines were revised,redesigned, repaired and otherwise modified and these changes not recorded in the factory files for any particular sn. What was done to the P3/4 and P4 cars at the factory in the mid 1960s was done in considerable secrecy and may never have been recorded without any paper trail. David Piper's recollections of those days certainly bare this out.What actually was done prior to Piper's ownership of what became 0900/0846 and what his shop did before he sold this car to Glickenhaus seems to be the big question here.It would appear that the car Piper sold to Glickenhaus had been considerable changed in the back end, possibly by Piper to take the engine changes. If indeed Glickenhaus only needed minor changes to fit the engine he in stalled, that would make sense. It would indicate that the aft part of the chassis had been completely redesigned and rebuilt somewhere due to these engine changes.Glickenhaus did not have the facilities to do this degree of rebuild so it was done eather by the Factory or by Piper whose shops in Maranell and and later in the UK could have done the work.Add to this I don 't think we don't know which of several available engines Piper installed in 0900.The real problem here it seems to me is that, for what ever reason, Piper isn't telling the whole side of his story and the factory records don't show any references of these chassis changes. I am entering this in a way of clearing my mind as to what may or may not have happened, when and by whom. It would appear that what Christian Huet saw and wrote accurately about what he saw, but where or when. There is a nice internet bio of Huet which seems to indicate that he is a well known scenic photographer and still active.All comments will be welcome. Enjoy tonga's crew

 

Huet is no confused, weak or uneducated witness and his fundamental book was published in 1995 without any manipulation or main stream surfing.

v12books/article/3377 (article number 6504):

Ferrari P3/412 P

Authors Christian Huet, Pietro Carrieri
Nov. 1995 / text I.E.F. / pp. 110 / ill. c. 53, b&w 18 / hard cover, 307x271mm

The notation P4 has become long since an acronym for the paraphrase glorious Ferrari
in the mind of passionate Ferrari devotees. Christian Huet has set about to describe how
all the modifications of this extremely well-designed vehicles are related to one another.
For a start his explanations focus on chassis n°0848, then again on the protagonists
numbered 0844, 0846, 0850, 0856, 0858, the cars to make possible for Ferrari the win
of the Sportscar World Championship in 1967. The author expounds in detail also the
customer versions 350 P4 / 412 P, successful in the years 1967 to 1969. The few manu-
factured cars, clearly recognizable by the compelling noise of their V12/36-valve engines,
they remain to this day crowd puller at any classic car event; and every single picture
shown in the present book claryfies why.

 

Doesn’t after Mauro Forghieri’s confirmation (and reconfirmation), that “never the factory could accept the showed solutions”, any further repetition of the pdf-resurrection-2412-illusion, the death-bed-statement or the My Garage and estoppel-construction constitute trolling, a bannable offense? All this had been posted more than once, is certainly no new material and miurasv by far not the record holder in repetition.

Welcome back miurasv, and yes, the official document that P3/4 was built in fact with 2400mm wheelbase is relevant material and not responded yet. This is a period document and no speculation of some who believe decades later to have discovered a written off works car integrated in a replica. And all these official datas match with the datas provided and confirmed fifty years later from the car’s constructor. This is a relevant document and an important input and I really trust that the above remarks do not serve to prepare a re-ban in the style before.

Piper P3/4 #0003 was bought because it is a most fantastic creation with many original and beautiful Ferrari parts. Following, this tread got started 13 years ago to prove that this very car has a modified, original P3 chassis ( … for those who are complaining about beating a dead horse …). This proof has failed at the latest with MF’s clear confirmation that no such modification could have been accepted from Ferrari. To question MF’s statement as the car’s constructor would simply be naïve ignorance and disrespect. But anyhow, the car remains a most beautiful creation and should be admired and really enjoyed. And with the very strong publicity of this informative tread, the car has a more spectacular status than the original. It wouldn’t even be a surprise, if at a certain moment this very car may enter FCA/PFA events and could finally legalize the desired status. But the car is - upon several reasons - certainly not Ferrari’s P3/4 #0846 and remains forever Piper’s P3/4 #0003.

PS: may I kindly ask what happened to NeuroBeaker’s answer to post #8568

 

So in a Nutshell, your saying Jim's car is a replica...yes?

 

Piper's P3/4 #0003 with all the connected history.

 

Thank you, fair and appreciated.

 

See here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferrari-discussion-not-model-specific-sponsored-algar-ferrari/501222-what-heck-going-place.html

Plenty of new information has been discovered. I've copied and pasted nothing. Christian Huet, the author of the TECHNICAL DATA SHEET (SCHEDA TECHNICA) cited in Jim's 0846 pdf as proof that his chassis is the original 0846, has put in writing in corresponding with me that it does not describe Jim's chassis.

Below is what the TECHNICAL DATA SHEET says and what Jim has copied and published on page 63-64 of his document pictured below:

"Transformation of a P3 model according to the characteristics of the P4
model.
Chassis Type 593/603. Transformation of the tubular part at the rear of the chassis
for new Type 237 [P4] engine mountings."

Glickenhaus says: This transformation of 593/603 P3 to P4 is clearly visible on my chassis and doesn't exist on 0900, 0900a, or 0856 as they are built to the 1967 P4 chassis blueprints. By comparing my chassis with P3 0844, one can see how this transformation from P3 to P4 was done."


Regarding the engine mountings of the original and real 0846 Christian Huet stated in writing (in French which was translated):

"I have found the notebook for my books about Ferrari, where I wrote my questions and Mauro Forghieri's replies. Concerning 0846, the modification of the P3 type 593 chassis, into a P4 type 603 required the total replacement of the rear of the chassis, which was then, absolutely identical to those of the P4s type 603."

After looking at the pictures from his 0846 document of the engine mountings on James Glickenhaus's chassis, Christian Huet stated the following:

"Concerning the photos showing the engine mounting of the P4 motor on "the so-called 0846", I deduce that it's a "DIY job" without any relationship to the original 0846 and without any relationship with the work practices of Ferrari, which I have studied/known for many years."

I have the written permission of Christian Huet to share his information.

This blows Jim's evidence out of the water. Plus we have proof from both the "Official" Ferrari Factory Technical Data Sheets and Christian Huet's TECHNICAL DATA SHEET that the wheelbase of a P3, and the wheelbase of 0846, which was a P3, was 2400mm and NOT 2412mm as Jim has stated for years. Jim's states his chassis is 2412mm using its primary engine mountings and a P3 engine. Jim has also stated for years that the TECHNICAL DATA SHEETS state the P3 wheelbase was 2412mm. Here, pictured below, is proof that he is absolutely wrong.

We have learned from the author of the TECHNICAL DATA SHEET (SCHEDA TECNICA), Christian Huet, that the engine mount tubes from the bulkhead/firewall back on the chassis on the real, original 0846 were totally replaced and the rear was absolutely identical to the P4s when it was modified from a P3 type 593 to P4 type 603.

There were no vestigial P3 engine mountings on the chassis of the original P3/4 0846.

There were no bolt on triangle adaptors on the original P3/4 0846 to make the P4 engine fit.

The P4 (or 312 F1) engine mounting on the Glickenhaus "so called 0846" chassis is a "DIY" job without any relationship to the original 0846 and without any relationship with the work practices of Ferrari.

The TECHNICAL DATA SHEET information in Jim's 0846 document should now be deleted as it has been irrefutably disproved.


You confirmed and authenticated the email to me from Mauro Forghieri, who when in charge of the Racing Department, and NOT "another department", designed and oversaw the build of P3 0846 and its modification to P3/4, where he stated that the P3 to P4 engine mounting modifications were not done on the original 0846 in the way shown in Jim's chassis, proving it's not 0846, and therefore ended the case which should have ended the debate. This latest official information in the Notiziario Technical Data Sheet from the 1966 330 P3 Press Conference regarding the wheelbase length and the TECHNICAL DATA SHEET written by Christian Huet is the final nail in the coffin.

As this post conclusively proves your above point b., may I suggest you leave the sledge hammer where it is and that you actually shut up.
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