The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

"" I was reading a book about P4s which talked about the 1967 TARGA Floria crash of 0846. You can see the result of that crash and the repair to the original chassis tubes ." "See them? See them where?" I asked. "In your chassis. You can also see where it was modified at different times by differ- ent welders..." Another thing you could see was that the section that likely was burned/destroyed in Amon's 1967 Le Mans incident had also been replaced with tubes of a different dimension and character by a different welder as well"

What is your opinion about that Steve?

 

QFT!

Thanks, Paul.

Thanks also to Jeff Kennedy for his post above, that really does state the "judging positon" on the car, recall that the Cavallino judges had much the same issue, when confronted with the well known "F40/LM" that was rebuilt, from a total loss due to fire. Except the frame. The VIN was well known to a few, as it burned in public, at a Track day...

Once the nameplate is lost, the is a break in continuity, the leaves the Legal Department (at Ferrari) with very little wiggle room.
recall though, that this car can come and go thru Italy, without fear of interference by Italian authorities....

Cavallino did get all excited about the car in question, when in fact the transporter had off loaded it to get to another vehicle deeper in the trailer. There's some poor personal behavior there (not by Jim....) that is probably best left in the past.

Muira SV, to say Piper "built the frames", instead of the more accurate "Piper commissioned the frames to be built" is either a play on words made consciously on your part, or a total lack of understanding of the vendor supply relationship used by Ferrari, for racing and road cars, during the period in question.

As to the "rare" tubing you reference, Ferraris are built of various types of framing components, but the only real identifying factor of many of the ancient cars is the use of OVAL tubing for the main frame runners, front to rear. But I see no MODERN reference to the nomenclature you are trying to use, in the post above, about "rare" tubing for Piper's job..

Steel is steel, and it is not rare.

Ferrari in those times was not the Ferrari of today. Problems in both labor and supply chains are well documented....

HTH.

 

It did not 'survive' the Targa Florio crash (officially).

It still rocks a little bit, on a level floor...I think that is why the Factory moved on...

Jim has to adjust the suspension, to compensate....on a road car, they probably would have rolled it on out the factory gates.....

 

I'm not following you...

Jim says that the chassis was transformed from P3 to P4 specifications...he believes this included a shortening of the wheelbase (by 12mm). He also believes that it was done by moving the engine mounts...a technical inconvenience because moving the engine alone will not change the wheelbase...

So, IF the chassis was really shortened...HOW was it done? Every single method mentioned does NOT involve intentional chassis modifications.

There are two possibilities: 1) the wheelbase changed from P3 to P4...shortened by 12mm or, 2) the P3 and P4 wheelbases are the same (2400mm)...

Jim's document takes stance "1" ...Steve's suggestion is stance "2."

Stance "1" ...the wheelbase was not shortened by moving the engine...so, how was it done? It has to be either: external influences (rear ended, burned to the ground, etc.)...which would leave obvious evidence. Or, it could be bolt on parts (different suspension castings, etc.)...if this is the case, then wheelbase is not a piece of evidence in identifying the frame. Or, it could be a completely new frame from the firewall back...this would relocate suspension mounting points as needed...BUT, if the whole rear assembly had been replaced then the hack job of the engine mounts becomes very problematic to explain.

Stance "2" ...the wheelbase did not change. This is the easy explanation...it matches Jim's observations (measured wheelbase = 2400mm) and Steve's 'technical data sheet' information (P3 wheelbase = P4 wheelbase). It does not, however, match Steve's contention that the frame was rebuilt from the firewall back. It also minimizes the differences and makes it more likely that P4 blueprints could lead to this solution if the goal had been to mount a P3 spec engine that Piper had lying around (pure speculation, but certainly a simple possibility, unlike many of the 'what ifs' in this thread).

 

......for those who don't know the above is from the 0846 pdf.

Like others have discussed before me, the alleged repair being talked about from the crash at the 67 Targa Florio is on a Left Hand Side chassis tube. Vaccarrella clipped the kerb/sidewalk with the wheels of the car on the Right Hand Side. It was the right hand wheels that took the impact and were damaged so there would have been no resulting damage to the left hand side chassis tube. Nathan Beehl I believe also explained the physics of why that would be the case.

The section that is said above to have been burned at Amon's 1967 Le Mans incident could be explained by a crash/incident that Piper may have had in the 26 years he owned the car before selling it to Jim or even corrosion. There is no proof the tube was replaced due to the fire at 67 LM. Besides, I haven't seen a picture of this alleged replaced tube anyway. I don't think there is one in the 0846 pdf?
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This is still folklore and ignoring the tread’s initial claim, that Piper’s #0003 contains a mayor part of the original car. Miurasv's posts are clear, although very insisting, what finally brought with the statements of Forghieri and Huet and Ferrari’s period Technical Data Sheet an eminent impact to the 2412mm fantasy and other speculations. It is ridiculous to deny these facts but may be you don't understand them. And still the rule has to be respected, that nobody has to prove anything except those, who claim that the car is not Piper’s #0003 as sold, bought, imported and taxed.

 

Especially when Ferrari confirms in writing, that this works car had been scrapped and eventual remnants should not be used to built up any other car. 0846 as an identity is simply no more.

 

Where chassis stamped by ACO LM scrutineering in that period?

 

Has anyone here seen the sections on JG's car that are supposed to show the LM 67 fire damage? Photos?

They are not in the .pdf I have, only the photo with the dented tube that is supposed to stem from the TF 67 crash and repairs....

 

As an aside, wasn't 0846 crashed twice at the Targa in '66 and '67?

 

Yup and the chassis was definitively scrapped after being burned at Le Mans 67.

 

I was just reading my race reports from the '66/'67 season and at the Targa in '66 Bandini apparently flipped the car, in'67 Vaccarella clouted the right side after missing a braking point and we all know what happened to Amon at Le Mans that year. Needless to say, 0846 (the remains of which I still firmly believe Jim has resurrected) has had a storied history......

 

Are you referring to Linder's F40 ''LM''?

 

You keep changing the words or meaning - the chassis was definitely "discarded", nobody ever saw it being sliced up and thrown in a furnace.

What some people DID see, not many years after 1967, was a P4-type chassis with Tom Meade - you ignore that.

As to a right-side lateral impact causing damage to the left side of the frame - you claim Nathan explained the physics to say it was impossible; my recollection (having been involved in this thread from the beginning) is that many experienced people said quite the opposite and that a lateral impact to the rearmost part of the frame would indeed compress the left-side bracing tube leading forwards and outwards to the left side of the cockpit rear bulkhead, making it kink.

And I repeat what I said years ago about Piper racing his cars between the late 1970s and 2000 - I followed historic racing through that period and to my knowledge Piper never had a crash in either P4 that would have required tubes to be straightened or replaced, as the ones on Jim's car have been before he bought it.

Paul M

 

Are the photographs of the restoration available anywhere? The thread is so old the photos are no longer attached.
Thank you

 

Just in regards to the Judging issue, in this thread.......

 

It's a .pdf file....

I have many of the photos from it (that actually predate Mr. J's public publishing) but I too have changed computers, so doubt I can find it.
Anyone else have it, to share via email??

There was also a UK magazine article in which the car was featured, I have that, on the Dining Room side table, I can get the info on that issue.....pictures are better!

Not as many of the frame....what many forget (it's back at the begining, here) it that there are also water and oil connections, that mate to the engine, different between blocks.

 

Thanks Rob!

Copyright 2004.....

 

Here is the latest version: http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/project.pdf

Even though it does not describe the Piper/Glickenhaus 0003 chassis engine mount modifications, as stated by its author Christian Huet, the Technical Data Sheet information is still quoted and cited in this document as the main proof that the chassis is the original 0846, along with the incorrectly quoted wheelbase information.

 

Thank you to all for your help. I had a copy of that PDF, but the latest version above had a lot more photos.
Thanks again

 

No, not laughable at all. As I already stated, and I have confirmed with CH that my statement above is correct. Only the P3/412P and 412P cars listed above had the 2412mm wheelbase and this when the ZF 5DS gearbox was installed in them which reverted to 2400mm when the Ferrari tipo 603R replaced the ZF.

 

When did Napolis post that? I don't see it in the recent posts.

 

Thanks Rob.