Marko: Red Bull has to find a solution for its next-year engine this week-end

Dennis stopping Honda from supplying Red Bull - Ecclestone



Dennis stopping Honda from supplying Red Bull - Ecclestone - Formula 1 News






I say “Well done Ron !!”

 

When the new engine specs were drawn up, the FIA went to great lengths to specify that ALL engines must have identical mounting points. The idea being that it would allow teams to easily change from one engine manufacturer to the other. Per Bernie, engine makers were also supposed to be able to provide multiple teams, and, as per the FIA regs, those were to be current year engines. Implicit in these regs was the idea that ANY team should have access to ANY engine in order to increase competition and reward teams for the quality of their designers, engineers, chassis and drivers. Refusing to allow Red Bull to have an engine because they represent strong competition is contrary to the spirit of the regulations. And it is the fact that in F1, what happens in the board room trumps what happens in the shop or on the track. That really turns a lot of fans away, because it means that most of the grid are hopelessly relegated to the status of back markers. Red Bull, Toro Rosso and Williams could be competing for the WCC but their fate is in the hands of the engine providers.

I know that this is the FIA and it doesn't matter what it says in the regs, if the right people object.

 

Those not willing to supply Red Bull are cowards....not much of a sport at all. I havent watched 2min of any coverage this weekend. No loss lol!! Well said Kiwi above!

 

No, F1 is not a sport, it's a business.
In business, you don't hand over your assets to your rivals for them to compete against you. Beside, Red Bull HAD an engine supplier, but treated it so badly that it burn bridges with Renault.

Having heavily invested in their power units, why should Mercedes or Ferrari give them to a team which could challenge them? Why should McLaren, that bore the brunt of the Honda engine development, now accept to share it with Red Bull?

If Red Bull can't find an engine for next year and has to close down, they brought the house down on themselves by their attitude. It's their arrogance that put them in this situation. I won't miss them.

 

Really?

Have a read here and then come back and tell Me that it's a material issue and not a design issue! : EXCLUSIVE: Honda misery set to continue into 2016 - Formula 1 - Motor Sport Magazine

 

I was really hoping the AudiRedBull rumors would have been proven true. Always was a long shot but it seemed to make sense for VAG.

Interesting to also see how scared F1 is of WEC, maybe why Audi is staying clear, by purposely scheduling the opening race over the 24LM! ******y move in imo.

 

Horner said live on the BBC that a possible VAG engine deal went "up in smoke" due to Dieselgate.

 

Scared of WEC?

We live in a generation where F1 is struggling to keep an audience entertained for an hour and a half. The shortest WEC race is 6 hours and can be incredibly tedious to watch and that is why it has a fraction of the audience and interest that F1 does and will always be a niche product because of that.

F1 scheduling a race at the same time as Lemans is because they DON'T fear a massive audience loss and DON't see endurance racing as a threat to their bottom line. It certainly isn't a compliment.

 

Unless Red Bull was willing to pay an obscene ammount of money, I wouldn´t sell them anything either.

These engines are a lot more expensive than what the customers are paying. So if Red Bull got the same engine than the works teams we would end in a situation where building your own engine is worse than being a customer, as the customer would be getting the same thing for less money.

 

Great post. Remember last year, the few times that Williams was a threat, a Williams employee had to crawl to Mercedes, on hands and feet through broken glass (figuratively speaking), for permission to change engine modes (which was denied, of course).

Pathetic, nothing more...nothing less.

+1

Also includes Ferrari. But...>

I see both sides of the argument. But I do find it pathetic that basically, a team that is not backed by a manufacturer, simply is not allowed to compete for the title, only for 2nd/3rd place downwards.

Had the rules been written better and the cost of the power unit not been so astronomically high, and even worse, not allowed to develop it after finding some fundamental flaws with the engine that renders them completely out of competing seriously, is highly anti sporting and defeats the point of going racing in the first place.

I can see why Red Bull is angry. They spend 100s of millions every season, quite possibly have the best chassis/aero package but are relatively uncompetitive because of their engine, and renaults slow pace of development, part of the blame of which lies at FIA's feet who wrote the rules in such a dumb way.

If the rules are written better, and simpler power units are made which allows companies like Cosworth to make an engine and supply to anyone (at this point, was it feasible, I'm 100% certain Red Bull would have employed Cosworth to make them a proper engine where the costs and complexity not so idiotic).

 

Why Red Bull can be angry about not having the best engine while Ferrari can´t about not having the best aero?

The car is both chassis and engine. So if Red Bull is not happy about the work of an external supplier maybe they should spend the ammount of money Renault is throwing and build their own stuff.

 

Totally disagree but at this point it's all opinion based so not saying "I'm right and you're wrong."

F1 is still bigger yes BUT it's dwindling, teams are growing frustrated, it's an awful product right now that is resting on it's laurels. That is why they cannot keep an audience, first 3 laps and last 3 are all that's worth watching. People still like racing but this isn't racing any longer. They are not going to be able to keep commanding the fee to hold a race. Drivers are wanting to do other things and unless you are on Ferrari or MB the money draw isn't going to be there. WEC is rapidly gaining an audience. Attendance is up, it's actually still competitive racing. More and More marques are wanting to go. It's cheaper than F1, more relevant is an ever money conscious corporate culture.

Early on for sure but, yes, I think it was intentional and a low brow move by Bernie.

 

Cheaper than F1?:0) I think Audi and Porsche's budgets would make your eyes water.

They are simply not comparable as racing series. The attendance figures and television ratings are not even in the same stratosphere and that's why Bernie sees no genuine threat and why he has such little regard for WEC.

 

That's easy:

First of all, Ferrari make their own engine. Red Bull employed (so to say) Renault to make them an engine. Last year they did not deliver, and this year not really either. It's unreliable, slow (compared to Ferrari and especially Mercedes).

Ferrari can't be angry about not having the best aero, because aero development is free within the regulations and you can make an unlimited amount of changes.

Red Bull has no experience with engines, they're not a car manufacturer. The prices of these engines (especially developing them) are ridiculously high (how many millions has Honda invested? I think over 100 million isn't it?), so it's not entirely feasible. I'm pretty damn sure that before all the Red Bull unsatisfactoriness became public, Renault and RBR had plenty of meetings where a better engine was promised, but never really came. Some degree of anger is justified. Had they had a powerunit with about as much power as Ferrari, I think RBR would have had a better run at the championship than Ferrari, and might even have won it.

And here we go again with costs and the complexity of the engine: Had the power unit been simpler (NA engine and KERS unit), Red Bull probably could have developed their own engine or employed Cosworth to build them one. Cosworth and other engine builders have all taken note, and the money Renault and Honda have thrown at these ridiculous engines, their inability to get decent power out of them or good reliability, for the return they get per engine it's not worth it on any scale. The chance of them building a better engine than not only Renault/Honda is miniscule, let alone Ferrari or Mercedes...it's just not going to happen. It would bankrupt Cosworth, simple as that.

And that's exactly whats wrong with todays formula.

Go back just a few years, had RBR been unsatisfied with Renault, and neither Mercedes or Ferrari would sell them an engine, a privateer engine builder could either give them an already made engine, or one could be employed to build them one instead.

Current rules aren't ruling out some teams money wise, but also ruling out the independant engine manufactures etc.

Formula 1 only has 2 manufacturer teams. No one wants to see just 2 teams battle it out in the next 10 years and all other teams having no chance at winning (and thus, fade away). We don't see BMW, Audi, chevy, Ford, KIA, Toyota and Nissan lining up to buy any of the teams or express any interest in joining F1.

 

Horner said their contract with Renault expired end of next year anyway so this drama was inevitable, just a year early. According to Toto Renault has given them a new contract now. I'm sure Renault is turning the screws on them now that everyone knows they're sitting with an empty car.

Toto Wolff on Lewis Hamilton, engine politics and F1 in the U.S.

Props to McLaren. This time last year RB had won three races and were complaining every weekend about their PU. McLaren has been at the back nearly the whole season and the team has held it together, at least in public (other than alonso).

 

It says nothing to contradict me.

Its a matter of bearing and insulation materials to make it work - materials that did not exist at the beginning of the season. If Honda can make these materials exist - the design will work, if they can't, they are toast and must change design. Macca isn't bad mouthing Honda for a bad engine, as Macca chose to take this risky path of ending up with an engine with unsolvable insulation problems should nothing new develop. Honda might have some excuse to take issue with Mclaren, but they seem set on making a winning Macca/Honda so far.

 

Renault championed this new engine format, a format that is losing the current fan base. RBR wants F1 to be an exciting place, not boring. Renault championing a format that loses fans is a pretty big reason for RBR to want to cut ties in addition to whatever performance issues there may be.

After yesterday's race, it'd be shame to lose 4 such exciting cars and drivers from the grid.

 

Yesterday's GP, with the power leveling affect of the wet track, demonstrated what good chassis RBR and STR have. Both chassis are clearly superior to Merc, Williams and Ferrari, who have the benefit of much more powerful and useful PUs. And Indeed, that must be very frustrating.

 

Mclaren knew fully this would be a growth year. Probably expected better improvement and the results proved otherwise. They were prepared for a tough season.

 

Tough season? Yeah.

"Prepared for?", I'll even agree there.

*But*, I don't think Uncle Ron thought they'd be quite this far off! [Certainly if you recall his interview back in Melbourne! ]

If it sounds like ****
and it's around 50-100HP down
and has little "drivability" ("a GP2 car!"....)

then it's really not very good!

Given the resources they're throwing at this project, I guess it'll come good in time, but I do think the higher ups in Japan must be getting very nervous about the whole venture right now.

Will they leave with their tales between their legs *again*? That can't be good either!

Cheers,
Ian

 

Yes, and that´s not cheap. Now Red Bull wants them to sell that know how at a fraction of the real cost. I haven´t heard Red Bull talking about sharing their chassis and aero stuff with Mercedes or Ferrari yet.

They have limited wind tunnel and CFD time, and can´t do testing. Ferrari also don´t have the budget of Red Bull to do as many aero bits. Some years ago a Ferrari boss, I can´t remember who, said they only could design and build around 1/3 of different front wing variations than Red Bull. Probably a big part of that problem comes from the fact that they have to spend a big chunk of their budget in their engine, while Red Bull gets it for free.

All those are Red Bull problems. Why should Ferrari or Mercedes help them? Do you think that the cheerful Herr Marko would do something to help Ferrari to develope their chassis? Hell, no!

Of course, Red Bull can feel angry about their problems, but they can´t be angry with the others for not wanting to help them. They already offered customer engines that probably are better than what Red Bull has now, but they wanted the best or nothing. Then it will be nothing and f*** u.

 

I still can't figure out where Red Bull makes all their money from.... I don't know a single person that drinks that stuff....

 

Im sure their simulations and then winter testing showed a small disparity I hope they stay and succeed. We need it in F1 now!

 

2014 rev about $6.5b

From Forbes:

"The brand that gives you wings sold 5.6 billion cans, up 4%, across 170 countries in 2014. Top markets included Turkey (+33%), India (+32%), South Africa (+31%) and Russia (+18%). The brand has dominated the F1 track with Infiniti Red Bull Racing capturing the Formula 1 constructors' and drivers' championships four straight years between 2010 and 2013, The team finished second in 2014, as the two Mercedes' drivers finished in top"

 

I don't think so!

Red Bull had to pay Renault for their engines.

Renault would not supply anything for free.