road atl de fatality

That is just poor track control and not letting everyone know the consequences of their actions. That's why "driver's meetings" are required for many organizations.

Well organizations need to clear that up right now so you don't get confused. What is HPDE? Is is high performance driver's education or is it high performance driving event? Only one trys to educate the driver. There are far fewer HPDEducation clubs like PCA or BMWCCA where there is tiered graduation from one level to the next. The idiots are really a very small population. The average guy in a vette does not go to these events swinging his big ***** around for fear of being lapped by a miata. The bad personality usually does not come out until they actually are a little faster that most and get to the intermediate groups.

SCCA is a racing organization. There are other better TT and HPDE clubs. Lots of them. Track night is supposed to be nothing more than exposing new drivers to the track. It is not a race, not a TT, not driver's education, not high performance driving event. It is an
hors-d'oeuvre. So if people compare it to HPDE you are making the wrong comparison.

I don't think so. People have too much time on their hands and have the need to "fix" things. Rarely do they make it better. Look at what is happening in America. We have terrorist fever. Everyone is a suspect. We have exponential growth in laws and enforcement. When we turn on ourselves the end is near. Nothing is going to make our sport go away faster than non-racers and non-drivers using our own soundbites against us.

 

I totally disagree. These guys were not malicious, they simply did not see the flags because they were focused on shifting, turn in points, etc. I vividly recall my first time on track with an instructor. He watched the flags for me my first two sessions. Once I was under control and getting into a good rhythm in the third session, we started working on locating all the corner workers and flag positions, then onto other things on the track. If I had been searching for those early on, there is a decent chance I would have spun off. It's just a ton of information and emotion when you first get out there - and I had a much better background than most to transition to driving cars - former athlete, good reactions, etc. A lot of people aren't going to be working from the same base.

It reminds me of playing ice hockey. When you first start, you are thinking about things like skating. Once you get good, the skating just happens, and you focus on more important things.

I might agree that they aren't exposed until they reach a group 2/intermediate, but the mentality is there. I've seen guys show up for their first track day with a second set of wheels and slicks. First track day. That mindset is not correct. Another one that comes to mind is this guy in a super fast Z06....rejected an invite to group 3. He'd rather run down people with lower HP cars and less skill in group 2.

Ok, but the end result is the same. You have drivers on track in a variety of cars going extremely fast. Whatever the intention is, the result is people assuming a ton of risk being out there.

I don't want to get into a P & R discussion man. We are discussing if telemetry is a real substitute to someone riding in the passenger seat. My opinion is that, on it's own, for people *starting out*, it is not. That's all I'm saying.

 

That is why there are beginner groups. That's why a driver's meeting and often a 1st timers meeting outside the general drivers meeting are often mandatory. If the instructor had to do all that for you he allowed you to drive too fast and you allowed someone else to encourage you to drive faster than you could process the data you saw. That 1st time on track should have been low pressure, freeway speed ,you handle everyday, with the intention 1st and foremost learning where each corner worker is and look for flags. They are your only communication on track and their purpose is to keep you safe. If that was not expressed to you IMO that's a fail with or without an instructor. The last thing you should be worried about is shifting and turn-in points etc. because you should be so far below the limits of the car that none of that would matter. So if you had a simple video to review with your instructor he could calmly go through stuff like "OK Joe as we go through the video point out each worker station." "The blue flag was shown to you here." "Do you know what that means?" A simple roadhawk HD for under $300 will embed GPS data into the video it records. Even for the 1st time on track there will be more on the video than any instructor would want to discuss with a newbie.

 

You are making a lot of assumptions about a track day you weren't at and a car you were not in.

There were those meetings. I was in a beginner group.

Eh? All what? Watch and make sure there were no critical flags while giving me pertinent, real-time instruction to make me safer? Who said he was encouraging me to go faster? He was actually encouraging me to go slower as it happens...until I started applying his feedback to his satisfaction, then we began adding speed.

Who said I was under pressure? I said that there is a lot of adrenalin associated. There still is, even in group 3 - otherwise most people wouldn't be interested in the event honestly. But pressure is not only a function of the situation, but also the individual. You get a guy out there that wants to do well and gets a lot of feedback, and he may respond positively or negatively to that - just like in any sport or situation. You can't guarantee a low pressure environment, because it isn't something that is 100% within your control as an organizer or instructor.

The track workers aren't telling you that you are turning in 10 car lengths too early, on throttle too early, have low eyes, poor hand position, aren't shifting at the appropriate time, etc., etc. The instructor sitting next to you is doing that. All of those things can be extremely dangerous depending on the person, track, and car involved.

You are talking about two different things. Track workers try to keep you safe as you mention, but they cannot improve your driving. They are just trying to protect you from problems on track and make sure that you are not the problem on track. Identifying a problem is one thing, but solving it is entirely another. As to turn in not being pertinent, that is a pretty scary statement - what's to stop someone from just driving right off because they are confused about what a cone or sign means?

So after 20+ mins of holding up traffic, screwing everyone over, and potentially causing dangerous situations, you can have a video review where you become aware of this? Sorry, but this doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Perhaps they might black flag you at some point, but if you are that oblivious to a blue flag (just as an example), are you going to notice a black one? ...or even know what that means?

...and how many people don't even bleed their brakes or have a proper inspection on their car before coming to the track? You think these same people are going to invest $300, on top of 250-500 for a track day, before even knowing if this is something they enjoy? I just don't think that is realistic.

...and I once again go back to the fact that many people just want to get out there and "go fast because their car and abilities are awesome." These people aren't going to be very receptive to sitting down and reviewing 60 mins of video. What facilities are going to be used to support this? How are you going to impose these rules on all the different orgs that run track days? I've also seen a lot of instructors that just seem to be around for a free track day also - these guys aren't going to be interested in this either.

 

I believe he did the track day in a street 458 - which is almost as fast without a cage or fire suppression. I believe he decided on a race spec cayman no?

 

Like many here, I've been to probably 100 DEs. Risk cannot be completely eliminated, and today's abundance of factory 500+ hp cars are certainly a factor, especially in the hands of inexperienced.

The group I mostly run with has a record of no metal to metal contact in over 30 years and only a few minor injuries from off track excursions. We do tech inspections. We do have a mandatory driver's meeting and newbies are required to first have a classroom session and then do follow the leader laps with instructors in the cars. Sometimes I instruct myself. We also emphasize that too much testosterone will lead to ejection. Corner workers do report drivers that are driving over their heads or out of control. Passes can only be done on straights with a point by. Nevertheless, mechanical failures and mental failures are always a possibility. I accept the risk when I go to a track day. It would be a shame if they were nannified to the point there was no more fun or risk for that matter. But then, my other hobby is mountain climbing. For those who don't like the risk, they should play golf.

Dave

 

The guys on 2 wheels do not have instructors on board.
Off track instruction, along with some instructors lapping on their own bikes seem to keep everything under control.

 

No instructors for rally drivers either. And we have jumps, cliffs, trees, no corner workers, no cushy tire walls or graveltraps or runoff areas.

 

Real men rally.

 

just think if the still had the dip....

 

not me, i suggested he try a mere Cayman until he developed his awareness ans skills. apparently he listened to reason?

Craig

 

Originally Posted by cgfen View Post
??????????
More details on this path please.

Since you chose not to answer my question in your reply, i've read through most of the other conversation between you and singletrack.

I find that my experience and thinking aligns more with having an instructor in the car for HPDExperience events (I think all 3 of us agree on that).
I don't see how data / telemetry is a substitute for in-car instructing for those low on the learning curve, it is an adjunct at best.

I suspect that the three of us would have much common ground if having this conversation over a beverage, rather than typing.

Cheers

Craig

 

I also have tried racing and do mountain climbing. According to Hemingway that only leaves Bullfighting as the last real sport. Pamplona anyone?

 

That is a great misquote actually. Hemingway never said that, it was Barnaby Conrad. Just found that out myself recently. Barnaby actually was a bull fighter also : )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnaby_Conrad

 

Craig,

I agree with beverage! Please read post #47 He is the only professional here. The rest of us are just amateurs. I have been through the whole range from trackday to HPDE to TT to racing and still race at the top of amateur racing today. What I say is just my opinion. If you and I sit down with nothing more than a video and 2 drinks we could talk quite a bit about what has happened on track all in comfort and without hurry of the next corner. There are so many advantages to not being in the right seat. Add in a $5 Cell phone ap and embed the data and the tool becomes more powerful. Add in a soloDL under 600 bucks and get OBD2 data for steering angle, brake etc. A roadhawk HD for $250 gives you HD video, embeded data, longG lat G friction circle, track map.