Manual transmission speculator hype

Okay, got it. I do understand the point he was trying to make but I was confused as there are manual 612s.

By the way, I agree with Caeruleus in that some of these cars just aren't suited as well to being a manual. I ordered a manual F430. I think that car is not a great manual transmission car. The flywheel is so small and light that the revs drop so quickly in between gear changes. You have to match revs on the upshifts. It's great and takes some getting used to but it's easy to see that the car was effectively "built around" an F1 transmission. The manual just isn't that suited to it, especially in contrast to a manual 360 or 550/575m. Those cars are truly fun to drive with three pedals (of course 550s were only three pedal).

 

When the 612's Type F133H engine was introduced in 2007, Ferrari did not bother to produce manual shifter versions of the Motronic 7.3.2 ECUs and manual shifter models because they knew the OTO with its 599 gearbox case and twin plate clutch were just around the corner, having already been introduced on the Sessantas. Three pedal orders were so low on the F133F engine 612s (10% or less), there was no reason to expend capital on such a limited market for the F133H 612s, especially since they were all special order. Technically would have been easy to do, but not justifiable for the very limited number of 612s Ferrari projected they would sell in 2008-2010.

 

I hear you Sherpa, but I very much enjoy my manual 430

You're right though- I have to rev match for upshifts- its fun! I'll never sell that car!!!

 

Ferrari should not make a MT on any car any more. It is a thing of the past. MT models from Porsche is even more ridiculous, and they would sell even more if they had PDK...

 

Porsche has DCT/PDK available on all but a few special models (GT4, Spider). Some are only available with DCT.

 

and the ones that came up for sale lasted forever, and prices where I think on par with F1 shift prices. Definitely not noticeably more...

It's just hype. Rarest of the breed, only xx amount made and people see dollar signs. I highly doubt any of the 599's sold recently at the ridiculous mark up where bought my manual transmission enthusiasts.

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To clarify, I love manual gearboxes. If I where to buy a 599 tomorrow, I'd almost certainly go for an F1 trans (prices being equal). I think it works better with it. I love to drive manuals, I really do, but most of these new cars just work better as a package with an F1.

Only the 991 GT3 (RS), Aventador and Huracan spring to mind as cars that should have been available with a manual...

 

E63 BMW M6. Howled that V10 from Spain to the UK at the media launch and it cried out for a manual. Lucky Americans got one, we Europeans got SMG III box that was not BMWs finest mechanical hour.

Vanquish S?

Besides Ferraris of course.

 

Yea, when new, 275 GTS/4s were just a few thousand more than the GTB/4 and Chinetti couldn't sell a new GTS/4, let alone a used one. Five to seven years later 275s were just used cars and the there was still little price difference.
Yea, new Daytona spyders were just a few thousand more than the coupe, and five to seven years later, they were just used cars with little difference in price.
I never liked the look of Daytona spyders and they weren't as rigid for hard driving.

But eventually, astute collectors noticed the rarity of the 275 and 365 GTS/4s and their prices escalated from the coupes. There was a similar story among the different varieties 275 GTBs: aluminum versus steel bodies, 6 versus 3 carbs, 4 versus 2 cams.

Yea, the few used manual 599s used to be priced about the same as the F1s. I remember Mike Sheehan did an article on the 599 years ago and stated the manuals were the same price. But most manual 599s are still with the gentlemen who ordered them that way from the factory. And the few that come on the market have been noticed by astute collectors for their rarity and as being the last Ferrari V12 manuals. (Yes, there are 3 to 6 manual early Californias , but if one hits the market I imagine it might be priced a tad more than the F1s.)

So it's not about whether the 599 F1 is better to drive or faster around the track than the manual. Or yea, you test drove a manual when they were priced the same as F1s and passed on it. It's about the rarity of the 599 GTO, the 599 Aperta, and the gated-stick 599.

Or maybe it's just "hype" that the GTO and Aperta and 275 & 365 GTS/4s are over-priced.

 

Nonsense.

As you know, Porsche recently stopped offering the GT-3 with manual; it is now PDK-only. The uproar has been so vocal that Porsche is expected to bring out a new 911R model, which is basically a MT GT-3.

Tell you what: why don't you go to your local Porsche dealer and ask to purchase a Cayman GT-4 or Boxster Spyder. Both of these are not just MT only, they are also the most expensive model in their respective lines. Enjoy your time on the waiting list.

 

My personal opinion is that Ferrari will never bring the manual back unless they create a new sports car slotted below the 488. I don't think they'll bring the manual option back for a special edition of the 488 or its successor. The take rate would probably be too low since most people that buy this class of car new want it to be as fast as possible. Maybe they'll do it if they produce a new Dino that's slotted below the 488. This could be Ferrari's take on the Cayman GT4. Everyone who wants Ferrari to be as exclusive as possible would be pissed about this model. But the new shareholders would be happy as the car might sell like hot cakes.

One thing that's probably certain is that there will never be another manual V12 car. LaFerrari tech will eventually filter down to the front engine V12 cars. And a manual transmission wouldn't work well with KERS. DCTs are perfect for hybrid setups.

 

It is sort of ironic that the Manual 599 is so expensive and sought after by people who will most likely never drive them more than 500 miles per year.

 

What do you think the ratio of manuals vs PDK would be if the GT4 and spyder were offered with PDK? My guess? Less than 25%... Much less. The ONLY reason Porsche offers the GT4 in manual only is because else it might be faster than the GT3... And possibly because they mispriced it so they will sell less this way...

The 911R is a limited edition and Porsche was going to sell them whatever they did to it. Manual only and 2 seats only apparently for astronomic prices, no thank you.

The real deal would have been a GT3 with 4 seats, PDK and no wing for GT3 prices. THAT would be something that could obliterate anything else in that segment.

 

I agree with you but recent press interviews people there say they will NOT make a MT even with the possible Dino....

 

That makes sense. I thought it was a long shot that they'd do it even with a Dino. It's so much easier to just offer the DCT.

The only high end European sports car company that seems committed to offering manuals is Aston Martin. I hope their new cars with the AMG motors sell well so they can survive. I've never owned an Aston but I would definitely consider a future model with a Mercedes built V12 and a manual transmission.

 

Aston's V12 is superior to the old boat anchor Mercedes uses. Tough boat anchor, which is why they get away with overcompressing her with turbos.

 

Your ratios of PDK and MT on a GT-4 or Spyder misses the point. The GT-4 and Spyder are for enthusiasts ONLY. And, as you can see, there are plenty of them. They have the GTS models for those who want the PDK with slightly less performance.

If the 911R is going to be as you stated, than I am as disappointed as you; since it would only be for collectors.