Haas laughs for today

Haas is talking about making a new, innovative chassis unlike the chassis that any other team uses, so how can they know what an untried chassis will do or how to adjust it to make it better?

If the chassis is as new and innovative as Haas claim then they will have to learn as they go along.

If the chassis is based on GP2 and indy chassis designs, then it's not exactly going to be the new and innovative chassis that they claim it to be.

 

See section 2 below:

From the FIA 2016 sporting regulations:

APPENDIX 6

1. A constructor shall, in respect of the Listed Parts to be used in its cars in Formula One, only use Listed Parts which are designed by it.

2. The obligation to design and use Listed Parts shall not prevent a constructor from outsourcing the design and/or manufacture of any Listed Parts to a third party (including an associate of such constructor) provided that :

a) It retains the exclusive right to use the Listed Parts in Formula One so long as it competes in Formula One.

b) In the case of the outsourcing of manufacture such third party shall not be a competitor.

c) In the case of the outsourcing of design, such third party shall not be a competitor or a person who directly or indirectly designs Listed Parts for any competitor.




LISTED PARTS

Monocoque

Survival cell as defined in Article 1.14 of the F1 Technical Regulations.

Front impact structures used to meet the requirements of Articles 16.2 and 16.3 of the F1 Technical Regulations.

Roll over structures - roll structures as regulated by Article 15.2 of the F1 Technical Regulations.

Bodywork as defined in Article 1.4 of the F1Technical Regulations and regulated by Article 3 of the F1 Technical Regulations with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed bodywork geometries.

Wings.

Floor.

Diffuser.

 

Interesting. Thanks.

I asked the question because several years ago, Team Larousse (remember them?) was disciplined by the FIA, and had all their points in the WCC taken away, because their cars were designed and built by Lola, and not in-house.

At the time, I read that the FIA sent observers who visited Larousse workshop and couldn't find trace of manufacturing, even if it was accepted that the cars were designed solely for them at Lola.

By the look of it, Haas doesn't have to design and fabricate much of his new car.

 

It's a good question. All I know is that there have been FIA inspectors involved to ensure it all legal. I believe there was specific mention of this on an article on ESPN F1 related to the use of the Ferrari wind tunnel in particular.

 

Because you hold some things constant and change others to understand what affects what. Obviously there will be challenges, but to say they will be lost due to innovation makes no sense to me - especially given their experience in racing and that of their partners.

Sure, but they aren't changing everything. Of course their will be challenges. Every single team on the grid has challenges. Even Mercedes this year struggled to understand the proper setup of their chassis at specific circuits - Singapore for example.

I didn't say it was based on either of those. I said that Dallara makes those chassis, hence they have access to the best manufacturing, testing, and design processes, which allows Haas access to essentially the same tools as everyone else in the world. It is still up to them to use the tools properly and select where to take risk (innovate) vs. accept existing principles.

 

The weird thing is, Section 2 seems to counter section1!:

1. A constructor shall, in respect of the Listed Parts to be used in its cars in Formula One, only use Listed Parts which are designed by it.

2. The obligation to design and use Listed Parts shall not prevent a constructor from outsourcing the design and/or manufacture of any Listed Parts to a third party (including an associate of such constructor).....

So section 1 states that as a constructor you can only use listed parts that you design, but section 2 states you can use a third party to design the listed parts for you!

How that works I have no idea!

 

Yes, it's a tricky one !
Probably open to interpretation if Bernie or Jean Todt approve of what you are doing, and they seem to like Haas.

 

It's actually straightforward if you read it like a contract...section 2 is essentially defining a term used in section 1...

Taken in whole, the rules allow third party collaboration as long as they are not competitors or working for competitors. Makes sense in today's world...efficient use of resources while preventing "spec" components.

 

We know already, that a team can buy/lease power units, transmission and suspension parts from various suppliers.

A team can also outsource to sub-contractors the design and fabrication of LISTED PARTS such as Monocoque, Survival cell, Front impact structures, Roll over structures, Bodywork, Wings,.Floor, and Diffuser, as long as it retain the intellectual properties of those items.


What is left to do in house?
According to the regulations, only airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed bodywork geometries have to be manufactured at home.

So, in essence, a team doesn’t have to be an engineering business to get into F1, as long as it can manage and finance the creation of its car from various sources. The term “constructor” seems to be stretched to the limit. No wonder Enzo Ferrari used to call some British teams “garagistes”.
Apart from BRM and maybe Vanwall, no other team was making their cars like Ferrari.

 

Well Haas owns the former Marussia HQ in Banbury plus a facility in NC. They are doing something there. His main business is also engineering (CNC), so it isn't as though they are just buying a car.

It would be interesting to see how many people work for Haas F1. I believe the AMG Petronas team has around 900 employees as an example! Aren't they also headquartered in Brackley UK vs Germany as well?

Does anyone in F1 today really make their cars 100% in house other than Ferrari? Does Ferrari actually? I don't know...

 

+1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

+1

I believe Marussia (or is it Caterham he bought?) has all the kit (primarily big autoclaves) to do it all in house. However, those rules seem pretty clear to me - Dallara can do it as long as they're exclusive to Haas and he owns the ip. Not a bad plan IMO - Worry about doing your own tub in house later.

Yes, Brackley. Outside Ferrari, where the lines are blurred, I think Merc are the biggest "F1 team". (Not including the engine guys.)

They've all (traditionally) done their own tubs, suspension, g/box and systems integration. (Hewland of course owned the 'box market for many years; everyone bar Ferrari used them.)

I'm not sure, but I do seem to recall that you had to do your own tub 'back in the day', but I don't have a problem with Dallara doing it - Exclusively for one team.

But there's loads of 3rd party suppliers; everything from brake disks & calipers, fuel cells and data logging stuff. They're integrators & packagers these days!

Cheers,
Ian

 

"outsourcing the design and/or manufacture"

My understanding is that's what Haas is doing by having Dallara build the chasis.

As long as the Haas chasis is a bespoke design of their own (whether a Haas employee did it or it was sub-contracted) then they meet the rules for being a "constructor" apparently.

Seems pretty straight forward and legal to me.

Seems to be much smarter than re-inventing the wheel a-la HRT/Marussia/Caterham and going bankrupt in a few years with nothing to show (other than Bianchi's points at Monaco).

Haas will be a big underdog, will be lucky to beat Manor, but being a USA team and a business guy who is willing to pursue some impossible dreams (NASCAR and F1), I totally admire him for trying. Even if he fails and never finishes a race, he a rich guy TRYING to do more!

 

Thanks for the info!

Re: your question: yes, it the Marussia facility which Haas supposedly purchased:

The Haas F1 Team have confirmed they have purchased Marussia’s Banbury base | F1 News

 

Well, we had McHonda, then we had Nissan making crap statements at Le Mans this year, and now we have Haas.

 

The good ol days? We bought a Cosworth DFV (or 5-6), 2 or 3 Hewland FG boxes, brakes from AP, then built a car to connect it all together within the box dimensions from FIA. Slap on some Goodyears (Firestones in 72) then plug in El Pilote and go race. Great fun...........

 

+1 The good ol' days indeed!

Throw in a custom case for all the spare ratios & dog rings "as needed", & a little stand to sit the tail end into when changing ratios and off you go! [The "Hewland jig" was pretty much a right of passage; Braze 4 odd length tubes onto a base plate and Hammerite paint the thing.]

Cheers,
Ian

 

Haas plans to give Dale Earnhardt, Jr. a fun "go" when his F1 is complete.

 

I wish they would just keep quiet until the first race. Why set yourself up for ridicule?

 

It's McLaren-Honda all over again...

 

Shhhh....

It's F1...we need the dramas

 

The reality check will be when they show up for the first test and the big guys
Mercedes, Ferrari, Williams (RedBull Infiniti Mk II and McLaren?) start running strong
within a couple of hours and Haas is barely doing any laps. Something like Mc this year.

From there we'll see what they are capable of.

 

Hummm, they will start with a proven power unit, so to avoid all the gremlins McLaren had.

I don't expect them to be at the bottom of the pile.

 

I hope they do great!! It's our little brother team after all.

 

...except that all the issues with the McLaren were related to the Honda PU, and the Haas car is running a proven PU from Ferrari. So this makes no sense to me, but ok?

The McLaren still seems like turd to me personally...we'll see if anything changes over the break.