They run about 2gs or better. Had mine done a few years back. The difference is simply stunning. This is the way the 355 was originally meant to run....without cats and advanced timing. They were all detuned for North America so they would meet emission standards here.
if these are no longer available......couldnt Socal just emulate them? Do yours just pop out? Also, isn't it a good idea to copy as they can degrade over time? I am just asking. I am no expert on this, but am trying to understand what I have read.
They do pop out but its not something you want to keep doing. They are custom made for each car. One has to submit their timing degree, with or without cats, type of headers and exhaust system ect. Then the new chips are made from that info. Degrade over time? I have never heard of this happening.
Yes the chips do degrade after a while. I copied mine just so I have them I have about 10 chips here testing right now and about half of them have issues with the checksum already, all stock chips for the 2.7 I would happily make you a spare set of chips, very easy to do. Have a few dozen military grade chips that should be here next week
I have never heard of stock chips degrading. Does that mean that all Ferraris on the road have degrading chips in them? To what point do they degrade? Is it like .1% per year?
It's just like computer memory, some bits just fall away with age. They can be fine but I always make a backup in case. Some throw random CEL codes, some no signs at all Most of the time nothing happens, I rather be safe with the tunes I have as it would be hard to duplicate them. I have a set of spare chips for all the cars and bikes that were "changed" Plus its nice to see what chip has more timing and fuel and make adjustments depending on your driving style.
I could probably open up the two matching challenge ecu I have, as they are only wire sealed in one corner and have a bit of slack in the wire so no doubt the cover will open regardless, just good know that its not been done before as the screws have obviously not been tampered with before. Anyway I am open to offers on them before I do as they are surplus to requirements
Those ECUs are sealed only to stop tampering by the teams as each team was issued the same set up (factory). The "challenge" ECUs are supposed to be identical to the factory ECUs. There were certain things that could not be changed in the challenge series and the ECU was part of that. The ECUs in my road car were changed because I could and in a straight line, my road car is faster than my challenge car. The suspension and braking is a whole other story. I also believe that removing the chips and reinstalling them over and over increases the chances of damaging them as you must be grounded and wear the proper gloves to do this. Mine are working great and I have no intention of playing with them.
Speaking as someone who was playing with electronics back when my 348 was new, yes the chips absolutely degrade over time and there's no way around that-- AFAIK, they *all* do it. Also, the risk in removing and replacing the chips is negligible. If I had spent four figures (or even three) on programming I'd want backups of those chips, especially if they are NLA. In fact, I'd be *very* paranoid if I didn't have backups. As an aside, someone here was kind enough to provide me with replacement chips for my '91 348. They supposedly contain the last and best factory mapping available for US cars, and the chips themselves are faster than the originals. I was told that my car would run and even idle better with the new chips, but it was suggested that a great deal of the felt improvement would be due to the increased read speed of the chips. Well, I can 100% confirm that what I was told is true. Turns out my car not only had the same part number chips I was sent, it even had late model ECUs (my car has a ton of factory upgrades). And yet it runs and idles *much* smoother with the replacement chips. The difference at idle is insane. Frankly, it's kinda disappointing because it now sounds much tamer at idle, but that means I can run straight-pipe converter replacements without the noise being objectionable at idle. But I digress-- the point here is that if I had trick mapping in my car I wouldn't sleep well until I'd had them cloned, and I'd want that done on the best spec EPROMs I could find, which I would then run in the car. As has been said before in posts way back when, and as Tim's own experience confirms, EPROM programming is *not* forever. The best case scenario is to back up that programming before it degrades. Fortunately, we're talking about a matched pair of ECUs, so it's at least possible to get a good idea of whether or not they're currently degraded by comparing the current contents of the EPROMs. And make sure to store the maps on a PC as well, so as to preserve them for the future because AFAIK, ALL EPROMs degrade over time. For whatever that's worth... ///Mike (electronics hobbyist in a past life)
Would be interested in them, I have a pile of ecus now. Whats a couple more if the price is right or I have parts you may need here in SoCal. Have access to lots of goodies not on the public market One set has a 2008 update to the ecus traced a german supplier via my reciepts. The maps are different then stock challenge.
I read those posts a while back with nodoubt and I believe you were in on as part of my initial research. I was having issues on a ecu where everything checked out OK so as an old "electronic "hobbiest" and I use that term loosely LOL I decided to do my own comparisons and am amazed how bad these older chips are. Static discharge? Well I'm in SoCal, almost no such thing as those that stop by I always work outside as I hate indoors anything My Offer stands to any member with a 348 or 355 2.7 system I would be happy to make you backups on the best new chips and send you a copy of the BIN file. Total cost is about $20 for the best chips I can find
Tim, we are on the same page, right down to the term "loosely". However, I was into electronics way longer ago than I'd care to admit and I've seen firsthand how EPROM programming degrades. Torn between sending you an old 348 chip to dump and just buying my own rig, since eventually I'd like to tweak my maps. My main points are: back up your data (even if they live in an EPROM), and apparently the OE 348 system was speed limited by the EPROMs, not the ECUs. For whatever it's worth...
I have the latest greatest 348 dump so dont worry about loosing what you have now. If you want to play with maps I would be more then happy to share info. I have some back door web spots that are private where info can be shared. I'ma unix geek also, how bad is that You can get a new batronix under $200 them whatever software you want to use.
Schweeet! Thanks!!!! I plan on taking you up on the offer. As a track guy, I'm always chasing performance. But as a looong-time fan of the cars from Maranello, I value originality. I know that there's more to be had with replacement EMS(s), but, having been in the car tweaking biz for longer than I'd care to admit, I suspect that those gains fall outside of the law of diminishing returns unless major engine mods have also been done. So that leaves me wanting to tweak what we have, both for originality's and practicality's sake. Thanks again! I'll be in touch once more of the less exciting tasks are done on the car.
I have them listed on UK ebay along with a load of other surplus 355 spares. Send me a PM with a direct sale offer if you like I can chop 15% off if I don't have to pay ebay or paypal. 164921 Ferrari 355 challenge pair of original ecu, still tagged and sealed | eBay
Response from Batronix. "We only have general programmers for a wide variety of different memory chips, microcontrollers and similar. We do not have anything specialized for those tasks." Odd that the people who make the stuff can't say that it will work with the 2.7.
You should have told them the chip Just about any of them will work with the 2.7 I have the bx48 I think the 32 would be fine just count the pins. These are real old very common chips They all use batronix free software to read them and you can either buy their software or use some of the freeware stuff, not as good
Have you found all of the maps yet, Tim? I have a few readers and a few chip images but no definition file to tell me where the maps are and/or what they do. I have 2 weeks off over the holidays and my car is back together, so maybe I'll take some time then to play around with what I've got. Maybe we can all join forces somewhat and see what we can come up with for the benefit of the other owners?
Ok last response asking if their software would work- It might, this is an addition to our Prog-Express software for our BX-Programmers. The additional feature allow for a few things like for example searching for possible engine maps, it will visualize those possible found maps in 2D and 3D and offers a few ways to change those values more easily. So, it's meant as an aid, you still need to decide which of the suggested maps are correct, and there is also the possibility that it might not recognize the correct one." Hmmm, interesting but a bit worrisome at the same time. With having no data logging capability with the 2.7 I would hate to be changing parameters if the table identities aren't 100%.
That's exactly the issue I ran into - I had a different program (can't remember which at this point as I've tried so many) that was able to identify a whole bunch of maps. But, that was only half the battle, as then you have to figure out what they all do. My plan (if I can't find the definitions) was to buy the ostrich emulator (or two, actually) and then start modifying the maps real-time while the car was running and see what they did, but that's a long process and one you'd need a couple of dyno days along with mixture and timing traces to figure out. In that case, that'd also not be something I'd want to just give away as it would require significant time and investment on my end to figure out. However, if somebody had a better way to find the maps or if there were a group effort to defer some of the cost and/or time, I'd rather that route as I just want to be able to play around with my car, not make money or start a business doing it.
Right, if it becomes too expensive and time consuming just changing the engine management entirely becomes the best option, but I'm not that serious about trying to get a few extra horsepower out of it. This stuff has been around long enough that the info has to be out there somewhere. Would rather pay for it than have to do it from scratch.
Tim, that TPS chip is not stock challenge. That is an after market tuner chip from Total Performance Systems and I have a set for my 348. They were not nearly as good as the ones I now have in my car, which came from 2 348 challenge boxes (they were not the same, BTW, even though they had the same part numbers). The story was that these chips were prepared by the same programmers who did the challenge cars and cheater chips. They were different enough that they did not violate Ferrari ownership rights. I call BS on this. They did not test very well so I replaced them with ones that did. In fact we dynoed a bunch at the same time in my car and I settled on the pair copied from one that came from one of the challenge boxes which gave the best curve. FYI, the other cloned pair wasn't quite as good. I am interested in the Italian guys chips, except that I am still messing with the car and would have to go through at least another iteration. The best alternative is to get rid of the stock boxes in favor of a modern, single ECU, plus it would be cleaner burning and far easier to maintain. This is my goal.
I had a pair of TMS chips for my F355 and did not seem like it did much. If someone wants to experiment with them let me know. I think I still have them.
