Planning on buying a 458 Challenge-- any advice for a newbie?

My daughter just did the (soft launch, beta test) Lucas school at PBIR this past weekend. It was a "friends and family" invite list, as to some degree they are still honing the programs and developing the cars. I observed (closely) and did try the car out.

There is ZERO doubt the Lucas program will be great - in my opinion, it will "fix" everything that one might find lacking in other programs. The level of commitment is incredible, and the philosophy of the school is great.

The cars - as simply put as I can - are like F1600's with paddle shift. They have a full AIM data/video system, and are great for teaching and mastering the basic skills (which, 99% of track drivers don't have mastered). I did SBRS schools and series for 7-8 years, and this beta school was already better IMHO. They are planning a set of advanced programs, this was just the basic program.

for the weekend, they had some folks lapping, the good news is they uncovered some typical new-car teething issues, the better news is they had a fix (including new parts) installed by the morning of Day 2. My daughter karts at a National level and has done a few B-Spec club races, but this program was great at working on the key car skills (braking, brake release, car control, etc). More importantly, they seemed to be pretty good at not teaching bad habits, or at least nipping them in the bud.

If you're addicted to horsepower or ABS or big grip, the formula cars will be an adjustment, but once you get your eyes/hands/feet working as they should, you will realize what you are learning. Or, in my case, I was learning through my (13 year old) daughter's eyes and watched her improve.

 

Agreed and always a good idea to broaden contacts, with the latter.

The Lucas school is put together and run by truly an all-star group. The depth and breadth of experience and teaching talent present in Todd Snyder, Randy Buck, Brian Till, Jim Pace and the whole team is an incredible resource. One not found anywhere else, as a group, in this country.

The use of the latest data and video logging equipment, and turning the information collected into an action plan for the next session, the next day or the rest of your career, is KEY to a driver advancing with a plan. Few schools use this technology and even fewer of those equipped with it REALLY use it well, but already the feedback is good.

Racing is a smart person's game. More knowledge+more experience+objective validation of what you have just done (and a lap time is only a sum total of hundreds of decisions made in that cockpit, that lap) = a faster driver continuing to improve.

It can't be stressed enough that until the driver is nearing "the best execution of fundamental skills," they cannot move forward efficiently, prudently and safely.

Particularly when folks talk about "car control" and braking technique (including brake release, the most important part), there is a dearth of good, professionally accumulated and objectively evaluated advice. Schools, particularly the Lucas school, take that variable away.

Mike Hedlund is a terrific example of a driver who has come into this sport relatively recently but with an open mind and the commitment to do it to the best of his ability. On track with some of the finest professional racers in the world, Mike can hold his own, but he would be the first one to tell you it was and is NOT easy.

I'm encouraged by the OP's stepped, incremental and purposeful approach. The Cayman is a terrific learning platform. The decision to attend the Lucas school will lay a FIRM and QUALITY foundation in the proper way to execute fundamental skills. The AiM data will be arranged like the information coming off the AiM logger in the Porsche, so there is learning there. A good early resource for him will be Chris Vallee at Speed Syndicate, along with the great advice from MikeH, Entropy and singletrack.

The only advice I have right now, based on what I've read, is DON'T fall into the trap of indexing your own performance off other people (and cars) on the track, particularly by chasing a lap time.

Retain perspective, form a detailed plan and execute the plan. In the words of one of the best, my colleague Mike Zimicki, "focus forward!"

This is a great sport made better by the people in it. And it's a great journey forward...

 

In my opinion jumping to a gt3 car would be a big mistake. You really would only race that car in a homologated series like pwc or weather tech and now you're talking about $700k min to run that car for the season. A challenge car is the more logical step up from a street car and will give you many more options to race it where it belongs. Meaning that if you took the gt3 car and ran with a group like NARRA or NASA where it would fit into an unlimited class, properly driven it would destroy everyone by a good margin and that's no fun either.

I ran a 360 and 458 ch last year with NARRA and both are very competitive and have lots of others to play with. In my 458ch I was only about 2 seconds off the pace of the unlimited cars and it is a gt1 car. If I ran a gt3 car in unlimited I would only see another car when lapping the rest of the field - it's just too capable for the "low budget" series.

If you hate your money as much as I do, get a 458 ch and come run Ferrari challenge with us and you'll have plenty of fun for half the cost of running the gt3 car in pwc

 

Sounds really great. In my first season of SB series as I believe I've mentioned. Hoping to test an F1600 this summer. Goals depend on how I do this year of course : )

That is awesome. My daughter is 4.5, and hoping to get her in some form of a kart next summer.

Impressive list! Just did some googling : )

Yup - as we discussed previously, this is no longer an option at Skippy unfortunately. I run my own AiM+gopro of course though, but not the same and there is a challenge in overlaying/synching the data of course.

So true. As a former hockey player, I liken it to skating. When you first learn to play, you have to *think* about skating...in addition to everything else. But at some point, it becomes about executing. I feel the same way in a car. I'm just now getting to the point where I'm simply executing and no longer worrying about technique - which is exciting and has been a challenging and demanding journey.

Totally - not to mention that many people start with ABS and traction control which masks all the poor technique. Ask me how I know ; )

Totally agree! I know how fast the fastest guys are in my series, but I can't get there yet - just on the sim. But I keep getting faster each time and chipping away at it. More importantly, I can act on the feedback and understand the car, errors, etc. I specifically recall a young kid being SO dissapointed being 2 seconds off race pace at Sebring early this year and telling him - "that is really excellent for the amount of seat time and experience you have!" I don't think he got it exactly - there is just no way to force this sport or bend it to your will. It's the biggest athletic/mental challenge I've ever taken on, which is what makes it so rewarding and addictive.

This x 1000!

The last thing I'll say is that with the Lucas school priced as it is, it is going to put some decent pressure on Skippy to get a new car out there. I know it's almost a joke because they have talked about it forever, but hopefully it becomes a reality in the next few years. With the pricetag on the Crawford USF4 car, it seems realistic to me (perhaps with a more budget engine), but I don't know the financials of course. But, I also feel fortunate to be driving an old-school formula ford essentially that requires the clutch, shifter, etc. I know it will make me better when I step up to a more technologically advanced car....or continue to play with older stuff as well like Peter ; )

 

What is the web site or phone number for the Lucas oil School?

Sounds like a lot more fun car than a Spec Ford, etc. to learn on.

Thanks, Jon

 

Lucas Oil School of Racing | Here is where future race champions will be made.

this is their beta site, apparently the production site will be online shortly, but this will get you started. there are pics on Facebook, et al as well

 

Thanks

 

Murray Marden is a cool dude!

http://www.racingsportscars.com/driver/Murray-Marden-USA.html

 

Correct spelling [email protected]

 

congrats on getting on track, your excitement is quite evident.

You had asked for "suggestions" previously, let me offer a few, am sure others will pipe in...

A couple reactions...

As to the car, remember that setup and tires, and tire pressures, can have a huge effect on how the "handles". A well set up 458 at Homestead is a missile, especially in the fast transitions. "Track specific" cars can (and should) be somewhat sensitive to setup, and tires/pressures.

As for the suit/gloves/helmet....well, I'd say "wear them, and get used to them". If heat is an issue, get a cool suit, they really work. As for sound...hmm.. I wear custom molded earplugs, I can hear pretty well. Not sure what "feedback" you're missing. Believe me, do this (or shoot weapons) long enough, and you'll miss your hearing...

All true. However, mastering a 3 pedal car (and a Cayman is a great learning platform) is a super skill builder. Requires focus on footwork that will pay dividends even if all you have is throttle and brake. Assume you have onboard data? A great thing is to try and keep your brake pressure smooth and consistent, watch the curve (Mr. Krause will weigh in here I"m sure) as you release.

Street tires are more progressive, but have lower limits. Slicks are fun. Make sure you are monitoring their condition and pressure, as wear and pressures can really change. I'd also state the obvious, "drifting" is cool but not fast or always safe, particularly if caused by poor footwork. FWIW, you can spin a 458C easily via poor footwork, you just tend to be going faster when it happens.

Your comment makes me wonder about how the cup car was setup. Most (smart) "rental" companies set their cars up to understeer like dogs even when parked, it keeps them in one piece. Caymans are great being mid-engined, a rear engine car does have its sins but the current 911's (again, if set up well and driven well) are quite balanced. Could be the car, could be the driver...

As for throttle, if you're maximizing the car, you can't "mash" the throttle even if you're driving a Miata...so there is probably more there. Having said that, "progressive throttle application" is up there with "proper brake release" as a key to speed but also to keeping the car in one piece...

Given where you've said you are in terms of experience...

1) do not focus on lap times. Seriously. Lap times at Homestead can fluctuate quite a bit if it's sunny, or cloudy....new tires, or old....hot or cold.... focus on your technique.

2) the best day to get (good)(professional)(did I say good quality) coaching is today. Believe me, learning properly now is cheaper and more fun than working to remove bad habits.

3) a 458C is a lot of fun. As you suggested, you were getting passed in 911's...the 458 has power, but remember high horsepower hides sins in driving during DE events. 458's are easy to go fast in, but will bite you the same way any car will when you introduce the laws of physics to the level of your current skills. having said that, I'd invest your time/effort/money and put together a real "program" focused on your driving. Quite honestly, after 13 years of racing, I (finally) put together a (real) program focused on making me a better driver, working with a very professional coach....it was like learning to walk again, but speed came quickly, more importantly I can now get in a car and realize both the limits of the car and know what it's doing, what I'm doing, and the relationship between them.

BTW - just sharing my experiences and lessons learned. I am no expert! However, I work with a lot of them....

Look forward to meeting you at some point on the track in FL during the winter/spring!

 

I was there too (in Adv/Instructor group), and would say conditions were not ideal for fastest lap times due to weather (wind, overcast skies) and traffic (large number of cars), especially for your run group. There were a number of race teams out that day (shaking down cars, drivers, testing) for the upcoming season, so they would have also accounted for your more "humbling" experience.

You've already received a lot of good advice, my only contribution is that rather than look at lap times, you analyze each corner to maximize your performance in each phase (corner entry, mid corner, and corner exit). Start logging data and learn how to use it to help you with car setup, driving techniques, and driving lines. With slicks, you need to take tire temps and pressures to learn how your car setup needs to change. It gets much harder to get the last 5-10% performance than the prior 5-10%, so you need to develop a process and discipline. Write down information after each session about what changes you made (setup, tires and condition, weight, etc.) so you can go back and determine what worked and what didn't.

Good luck and keep safe.

P.S. Once you sample a true race car, no street-based car no matter how well modified and prepared, can compare.

 

Are you checking tire temperatures too? That is probably your best indicator of the correctness of the car setup. You really should get some video with data overlay, I use a video vbox. Harry's lap timer with video is a cheap and super easy way of getting a lot of information just using your phone. You will appreciate it the first time you spin and are trying to figure out what you did wrong. Everything happens so fast, you don't have a chance to think about anything but keeping the car out of the wall.

 

Buy a probe to insert a few millimeter into the tire rubber so you are measuring temps below the surface, not on the surface of the tire. There are units with memory so you simply insert probe, wait for auto memory save and move to next measuring points (3 per tire, inside, middle and outer) without having to write down or try to remember the data. Mine is Longacre. Your prep shop should know how to diagnose the readings, but your challenge will be to drive consistently with whatever setup changes they make.

 

I have the Longacre too. You can start with the cheap one, but you will end up with the more expensive one (about $400) if you are at all serious about racing. Tire temperature will give you feedback to adjust pressure, camber, toe etc. It is very important to a correct setup and your prep guys will want that information to make adjustments.

 

I was running on Sunday at homestead as well. In your group you couldn't possibly get a decent lap with all of the traffic. I was in the group using the Nascar banking and that wind was vicious. Homestead infield portion is not very technical, just need patience to let the car roll into turn three and the hairpin.

 

Sounds like the setup was spot on, from the hot pressures. I think if they were all over the map, then you would start a temp measuring regimen to get them there, but in this case, all is well.

In the most advanced data acquisition, we are now logging internal tire temps which give a better idea of each tire's workload than probing at the end of a run. Tires are worked unevenly (right side far more at Homestead) and can cool quickly and unevenly.

The VBOX is a wonderful little tool, but with the AiM and MoTeC, much more can be done. I've been a dealer for all of them for many years and there are pros and cons to each. Almost always, when I work with a client, I install a battery powered VBOX Video HD in a ballistic nylon bag strapped to the door bars for additional info over the system(s) that are in the car. In this case, the OP is certainly covered, for sure!

Of course, the sky is the limit, and I have a number of AiM, MoTeC and other logging customers using real-time triple and quad IR sensors per corner over CAN to measure changes in tire temps on track (NOW, you're talking valuable info). Without a full-time data engineer, this information can't be digested nor a change strategy developed at the track, however.

Back to the OP's Homestead report, it sounds like the balance of the Cayman was good, at this point, validating the proper setup by Chris and the crew at SS.

At some point, a few hot laps by a professional he chooses to work with (Chris Hall, Peter Argetsinger, David Tuaty or Jeff Segal, some of my favorites) would push the envelope enough to see if that balance STAYS consistent when going quicker than the client is going.

I love tire temp monitoring, it's a good thing, but once in the ballpark, work on the loose nut behind the wheel.

 

Ky1e, any updates on your track pursuits? Still tracking the Cayman? Something else? I am considering a similar path, and benefitted from all the input in this thread. Hope you're having fun!

 

Oh no. You totaled the costs? I just wait for my financial advisor to leave a message that "we need to talk". ; P

Good racing w you in pbir! Think you'll do any more open wheel or sticking to the sports cars for now?

I'm running the Lucas series then probably jumping into an F4 test. Season starts next month; can't wait.

 

LOL, singletrack! Yeah, best not to look too closely at the costs, aye? I'm planning on thte Lucas schools, too.

Ky1e, sounds like you're having a blast. And keeping busy! Congrats on getting up to speed so quickly. Appreciate the ton of additional specifics. I'm sure you're enjoying your track time more, and progressing more quickly, with all the coaching and arrive-and-drive support.

Why two Caymans instead of one? Back up car? Did you buy the Caymans new, and convert them to race cars yourself, or were they already race prepped (noticed the $160,000 on upgrades).

Thanks again for taking the time to share all this info and your experiences.