If the 512 engine was a true boxer

A true "boxer" layout (throws both of a pair out together and withdraws them together) would be even smoother, but the crankshaft for a 12 cyl just gets too long to be practical (and more expensive to make).

 

Michael, I believe it is the other way around: Boxer motor where each piston has its own rod journal and seems it throws to "punches" at once (one is actually a compression stroke and the other is an exhaust stroke); a flat V like the BB pistons share a rod journal so one withdraws while the opposite advances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2aGqmmS0gs

 

I had thought for years that my TR was a boxer engine. It wasn't until I stated that on this site that I was schooled.

Boxer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2aGqmmS0gs

TR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEgXUt1PSgg

 

Its still a flat 12 though.

 

V 12 with 180 °

 

which means its not a V just a V firing order.

 

It's a __12. __ being what you get when you flatten a V.

Ferrari insist it is referred to as a 180 degree V12, officially.

 

And a boxer would have a totally different sound.

 

I had no idea they were different designs. Interesting. Thanks for the links.

 

its really a flat 12. To me v12 means the motor is a V and Tr BB motors are not a V, the only resemblance is in the crank.

Interestign in how thye are so smooth though. I am guesing that even if one piston is TDC while the opposite is BDC the next ones in line reverse the sequence so there is minimal vibration.

 

The Porsche 917 12 cylinder engine is another flat 180 degree 12 cylinder engine like the 512BBi engine. The Porsche 917 engine is not a boxer design like the Porsche 6 cylinder engine which is a true boxer design. The non boxer type Porsche 917 flat 12 cylinder engine was a very successful racing engine configuration, likely the shorter crankshaft length of the flat 180 configuration resulted in greater torsional stability contributing to the Porsche 917 success.

There is no crime in having an inherently smooth and balanced flat 12 cylinder engine versus an equally smooth boxer type 12 cylinder engine. I am forever amused by the uninformed disappointment registered when people learn that the 512BBi engine is not a true boxer type engine.

 

but the 917 crankshaft gives the power not at the rear, it gave the power in the middle because of the torsion problems

 

Yes it is flat, but flat only describes the physical layout and not the firing order.

 

Just for my education...are the Subaru engines boxers, flats, v180's, or v360-180?

 

subaru engines are boxers
have a look at the crankshaft ( Subaru Boxer Engine - What it is and why Subaru Chose it )

 

Just listening to the Subaru you can tell it's a boxer.

 

The Ferrari Flat 12 has an interesting history. Basically the design evolved form Forghieri's 1512 (1,5 litre of capacity, 12 cylinders) used at the end of the 1965 season, which was indeed a "Flat-12" (not a true "Boxer") and had a cylinder capacity of only 125cm3 for each cylinder.

For the new 3 litre formula one, Forghieri was forced (very probably due to funding limitations at Ferrari) to use a 3,3 litre engine block, coming from endurance racing, to build a Formula One 3 litre V-12, that never gave fully satisfying results: it was too big, too heavy, not powerful enough and was delivering power in a very limited band of rpm.
Chris Amon complained a lot during the 1968 season that the Ferrari 3 litre V-12 had "no steam", and that the Ford-Cosworth DFV had better acceleration.

When given a green light to design a completely new Formula One engine at the end of 1968, Forghieri decided to go back to its favorite configuration of the "Flat 12" as in the 1512 of 1965, but enlarged to 3 litre.
It was a very advanced engine for the time with needle bearings for the camshafts, etc...only four bearings for the crank (if my memory, etc...) and stormed to a string of victories during the second part of the 1970 Formula One season.
Of course we know that it was one of the racing best engines of the seventies and was very succesful in endurance as well; and that Alfa-Romeo build a Flat-12 of its own for racing purposes.

As the road-going 365 V12 engine was seemingly nearing the end of its development potential (it was after all a derivative of the Colombo V12...) ingeniere Angelo Belli was given the task to build a "Flat 12" on the basis of the Formula One engine designed by Forghieri, but with the cylinders, pistons, etc from the 365 V12 to avoid some risks.
And here you have a direct transfer to the road-going cars from competition.
Why the engine was called "Boxer" is open to discussion.


(but there were flat-12 engine before Forghieri's 1512, here in France the EBR military vehicle of the 1940s - 50s had one, albeit air cooled)


Rgds

 

I know Ferrari likes to say that but in my opinion the story was a construct of the advertising guys to create some interest in the cars. An examination of the racing and the street flat 12s (I worked daily for some time in close quarters with a few of the racing flat 12s back in the 80's) shows the commonality pretty much starts and stops with the flat 12 configuration. In fact, except for some some head design features the flat 12 is just a 308 motor laid out flat by virtue of a different block casting and the 2 motors share a great deal of their parts. The TR was just a 4v conversion with a simplified cam drive and relocated water pump.

 

Of course your right Brian in so far as there always has been a certain degree of "romantisation" in the way it was presented by Ferrari.
What always astonished me the most is the "efficient" use of parts Ferrari made at the time: the V8 shares the same cylinders and pistons than the 4,4 litres 365, and 4,4 litre Flat-12 engines, that's why its total capacity is 2928 cm3 and not "close" to 3.000 like the DFV which was 2.997...

Rgds

 

Ferrari used the same connecting rods from the late 250's to the TR/348.

 

interesting