Do you think it's OK to run Power Brake Pump all the time? | FerrariChat

Do you think it's OK to run Power Brake Pump all the time?

Discussion in '348/355' started by carwhisperer, Feb 7, 2016.

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  1. carwhisperer

    carwhisperer Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2014
    426
    Sacramento, CA
    Full Name:
    Brian
    My power brake pump doesn't work most of the time. I have checked the three fuses for the black, orange and green relays in the trunk. A couple times when I messed with them the pump came on for a while.

    My understanding is that the black relay toward the back of the car is the one that actually sends power to the pump. I believe that relay is energized by the orange relay, which probably gets some sort of signal from the brake ECU. Would there be a problem with energizing the black relay from an ignition signal? I tried doing that and the pump ran for a while after I turned on the key without starting the engine, then shut off, like I believe it's supposed to do. The way I did it, would the pressure switch still cycle the pump?

    And, if I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the system works, please tell me.
     
  2. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Dec 22, 2011
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    The first thing to check: The two 30 Amp fuses should have power supply (+12 V) all the time; the 3 Amp fuse gets +12 V when the ignition switch is turned to the first position (accessories on, ignition still off). If the pump does not start running, you can bring +12 V directly to the 3 Amp fuse and see if the pump runs then (before testing, pump the brake pedal a few times to release pressure and activate the pressure switch).

    Since you got the pump running briefly when you fiddled with the fuses, you my have a corroded contact at the fuse or relay pins and sockets; especially check the contacts of the 30 Amp fuses and relays for any signs of burning/melting. (Note: The three relays are very different, make sure you don't accidentally swap them)
     
  3. pnicholasen

    pnicholasen Formula 3

    Jan 14, 2011
    1,364
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    Paul Nicholasen
    I did a 3 part video on the basics of the ABS system. This should get you to part 1: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B3RH5uTXrqI
    As you have found out it's a bit of a maze to dig through. The other problem is those damn relays are Ferrari specific. Not easy to find, not cheap, and not replaceable with something from AutoZone. Agree with above; unplug and clean all contacts and check all fuses and pray. If still nothing you'll have to go through each component from the pressure switch, through the relays and diode box to the pump. Good luck!
     
  4. bcwawright

    bcwawright F1 Veteran

    Jul 8, 2006
    5,234
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    Bruce
    While you are checking things out may want to also check the wiring harness and connectors.

    There are fuses and wiring harness available in the FChat classified ads section if needed.
     
  5. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    #5 m.stojanovic, Feb 8, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    The top relay should not be a problem to find - must have 87 & 87a pins.
    The middle one is basically a simple 4-pin relay - you can add diodes outside in the orientations as shown.
    The bottom one is same as the top one, just add diodes outside.
    Note the orientation of the diodes, not same on the middle and the bottom relays. Diodes 1N4005, 6 or 7 will do as they are for 1 Amp and the relay draws about 0.1 Amp. All mentioned diodes are good for 400 Volts or more which is required in order that they can handle the backlash voltage pulse of the relay coil on switch-off which can be as high as 200-300 Volt.
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  6. carwhisperer

    carwhisperer Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2014
    426
    Sacramento, CA
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    Brian
    Ok. Will I do harm to the system of I energize the black relay (closest to the back of the car) whenever the key is in the run position?
     
  7. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    The yellow relay is there only to disable the ABS system during cranking (to unload the battery). It provides power to the ABS system when it is OFF via its 30 to 87a pins which are normally closed (closed when the relay is OFF); during cranking, its coil is energised (relay ON) and it temporarily disconnects the power to the ABS system. Looks like your yellow relay is faulty. i.e. does not provide continuity from pin 30 to pin 87a (when in OFF position). You can pull it out and check whether there is continuity 30 to 87a. If not, I think it can be opened and you can then clean the contacts that are in closed position.

    For a quick check, you can (with the yellow relay removed) plug a short piece of wire, one end into the socket of pin 30 and the other end into the socket of pin 87a (create a by-pass) and see if the ABS works fine then.

    With regard to your energising the black relay by the ignition "on", it is o.k. if the pump stops working by itself after some time, comes on again after you pump the brake pedal a few times and goes off after you have stopped pumping. However, your ABS may not function in this case but you may have brake boost only.
     
  8. carwhisperer

    carwhisperer Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2014
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    Brian
    Thanks for the help! I'll try driving it like this tomorrow. I have run other circuits like this in the past and had things start working. For example, on my old 348 both fuel pumps wouldn't run. I hooked jumper wires to the relays to energize with the ignition key on. After driving it like this a few times, every thing (in that system at least, haha) started working right and I was able to remove the jumper wires. My theory is that after all the sitting these cars do, and all the relays and relay-relays they have, the electricity needs to be "shown the way" sometimes and then it starts flowing again. I know that's pretty simplistic and non scientific, but it kinda makes sense to me.

    Brian
     
  9. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    #9 m.stojanovic, Feb 9, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is a detail (from the wiring diagram for 348) showing interconnection of the Yellow and Black relays. In its OFF position (and the ign. key in 1st position and also in ign. position i.e. when the engine is running), the Yellow relay energises the Black relay and provides power to the ABS ECU (to Pin 2). If your bringing of the ignition switched supply is to the Pin 86 of the Black relay, then you have done the same as what the Yellow relay normally does, via Pins 30 & 87a when in OFF position, and your ABS will function normally. The only function you will not have is the temporary cut-off to the ABS ECU and the ABS pump during cranking (to unload the battery) when the Yellow relay is switched ON cutting the link 30-87a.
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  10. carwhisperer

    carwhisperer Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2014
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    Brian
    Cool thanks!
     
  11. carwhisperer

    carwhisperer Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2014
    426
    Sacramento, CA
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    Brian
    That worked! I had power brakes all the way to work. And, both brake MIL's were out. The ABS light was still on, but I was down to 2 MIL's for 20 minutes of driving this morning. It was nice.
     
  12. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    #12 m.stojanovic, Feb 10, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    A blue Volvo relay (shown on the pics) can be used to replace any of the ABS relays. This relay already has one internal diode, across pins 85 - 86, in the correct orientation. It is also easy to open. The slight mods would be as follows:

    1. For the Yellow Relay - insert a diode into the wire going to relay Pin 86 (cathode towards the relay pin)

    2. For the Black Relay - insert a diode into the wire going to relay Pin 85 (anode towards the relay pin); Note: Pin 87a of the relay will not be used in this case; it can be cut off or left as I think the socket for it is empty.

    3. For the Green Relay - cut out the diode inside the relay (see 3rd pic)
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