have the computer cars upped tech rates on others?

The cost of purchasing new and expensive equipment is responsible for the ever higher hourly rates so yes it does.

The value of older models drives it up as well because of insurance costs and the liabilities of working on fragile, expensive cars.

It does in fact cost more to fix a Ferrari than a Toyota and for good reasons.

 

insurance, a host of special tools for each model, product information, diagnostic equipment and decent techs. The margins are slimmer than most realise specialising in Ferrari...

 

The fact that, unlike most other makes, Ferrari does their very best at depriving shops from having equipment and technical information in an attempt at creating a monopolistic environment drives up costs substantially. Ferrari can be thanked for that.

The SD2 for example when first sold to the dealers had a cost of $3500. The underground price we were forced to pay was $20,000.


At a dealer meeting a number of years ago a speaker for Ferrari announced they were going to force all the independents out of business. I'm guessing it was so they could offer better prices.


Ask Ferrari why it costs so much to fix one of their cars.



It will get worse, much worse.

 

It is. It is against federal law. Just one more federal law not enforced.

We could force them to give us access, then what? It would be priced beyond what would make sense to pay. What would be gained? And at what price?

None of this is a new conversation.

 

Ferrari is funny about this type of thing. I may be wrong but I believe they have no copyright on the prancing horse either yet they will hammer you with legal threats if you use it.

You could challenge it in court if they come after you and very possibly win, but - for reasons I cannot possibly list - it just will never be worth your time. They will wear you down until you just quit.

 

Wrong on that one Tommy. The horse with the tail up is theirs. That's been to court many times. Same with the Ferrari script with the long F. Their legal department has that covered.

 

A couple of years ago an FCA National meet was close to one of the very big Ferrari parts distributors. FNA called and said they would be in the area and asked for a tour. They were very nice and at the end said it was very impressive and it was a shame they were going to be forcing him out of business. He said write me a check for X Million and I'll leave my keys on the desk, until then talk to my lawyer. He is still operating.

 

Didn't know that for sure. I was told/heard/etc. it wasn't but I never understood how it couldn't be theirs.

Now I know.

 

Is there a freedom of information agreement that cars X years old, I thought 2 the info had to be released to service the cars?

I remember at my company "TMD" they were in the process of this when I retired. If they did not agree there was to be a strong penalty. I can't remember what for the life of me but thought in was in the allotment of cars into the US.


I think Ferrari is just a bunch of bully's that need a good nut kick

 

But I see nothing to stop all manufacturers to charge unobtainable fees to access data online from the ferrari factory database. Then we are truely SOL.

 

I thought it became "open source" after a couple years

But year try get them to play nice.

 

Ferrari of Central Florida has reduced labor rates for classic V8 Ferraris (308, 328 and Mondial 8 - 3.2). I'm don't know if it's the same for the 348, 355 and Mondial t but eventually I'll find out.

 

It is very simple. It's an industry where the basic business model was based on a high percentage of income going to the service department. Cars changed and in a very short period the maintenance requirements are a small percentage of what they once were. They need to do something so they are trying to get the older cars back, they ones they didn't care about just a few years ago.

 

It is much simpler than that. From discussions with people in that end of the legal business there are federal requirements, not auto industry specific, that require equal access to information and equipment. EU has the same requirements and they enforce it, US does not.

There is a situation going on right now in the farm tractor industry of all places where the manufacturers are trying to exercise their intellectual property rights to software on your tractor claiming it is theirs and you have no right to own or access it. That includes servicing. If any repairs, service, or replacement is required it can only be done by them and if you dispose of the tractor they car retake possession of those items. Considering the power of our high tech industries and the strength of our intellectual property rights laws it may be a game changer.

As far as legal action to gain access to information or equipment so much of that now is either on line or with software that expires both requiring a subscription service it can easily be priced beyond what is worthwhile paying. Dealers have no choice, it is in their dealer contract to do so.

 

Last few years, all info and diag has gone 'on-line'. It requires a subscription plus their proprietary hardware. Porsche for example will take $30K a year from you for the privilege!

I disagree with lower rates for older cars. The knowledge and experience to rebuild and tune a carb 308 to concours is not taught in dealerships. Present day newcomers to a service shop are expected to plug and play pretty much.......

My rates are too low period, as Rustybits has said!

The later Fcar models are almost impossible to get service info (such as it is) outside of a dealership nowadays. We had one website do a sturdy job of sharing until the F-bomb dropped.

 

Look guys.. Ferrari and Porsche all use common components from their suppliers: Bosch, getrag, Delphi, etc.

There will be some proprietary code in the computer system, but they're limited by communication standards on the bus. They're going to use common components to save costs versus paying for a proprietary board or coding. There will be some wiggle room but if you have the product spec sheet you can infer the output from the component.

 

If you are reduced to doing it that slow of a way you are buried in labor costs and already non competitive before the diagnosis is made.

Many shops already trying to do that now instead of buying the equipment that is out there. Every month I get cars that were worked on that way only to see a really outrageous bill and a car that has not been fixed. Those guys are going the way of the dinosaur thank God.

The only people that consider that a valid method are those that don't know anything about the business and some of those are in it.

Might just as well open a hospital with a stethoscope and a thermometer for your diagnostic equipment. You'll cure some of them before they die but you sure won't make any money in the process.

 

Unless it's changed recently, $99/ hour for MY 99 and older.

 

If Ferrari only offers the plug and play to authorized dealerships and charges prohibitive fees for an official scanner to determine the code that indicates a speed sensor is out.. then the component method, however slow, is a necessary evil. Unless there is another way without sending Ferrari a lot of $$$? And when they don't agree to provide you with a contract for a connection for diagnosis? What do you do then?

For example, if the ECU is designed to communicate over the internet with home servers you'll have to know what format the message was sent in, what delimiters were used, etc. Then determine the meaning of the codes? Basically mimic a server and then decode the thousands of lines of proprietary code. But you know that the components use a Bus communication format. Half your job is done.

You'd be surprised how often an MRI isn't needed for an accurate diagnosis.

 

Works well for me regarding service that I can't otherwise find the time for. But there may be limitations as well. For example, I put spacers on my '90 348's rear wheels and the dealer aligned the car to "factory specs" when, possibly, the specs for the SS could make more sense.

However, for serious maintenance issues/concerns I'd ask for recommendations as to whom instead of where.

Rings a bell to me.

 

I always find the importance some place on an hourly rate amusing. People worry about how much to buy 60 minutes of someone's time and what they should be concerning themselves with is the work product of that 60 minutes. I very recently had a 360 here that thousands had been spent on trying to resolve an electronics issue. I found and fixed it in just a couple of hours at I dare say a higher hourly rate. Now, do you think the hourly rate was more important in the end, or the final bill and the outcome? I have the privilege of knowing a lot of really good people in this business and not one is the low price leader in their market area when all you take into consideration is the hourly rate. Not a single one even mentions hourly rate and I bet the final bill is on average lower not to mention the work better. I also know not a single good shop in this business advertises their prices. They know, like I that it does not attract the clientele they want, they are looking for a false economy and are headed for a train wreck. I really appreciate it when someone calls and asks what my hourly rate is when shopping for work. I know right off there is a potential client I do not want. I like smart clients that understand that, they are a joy to do business with.

 

^^^ Agreed. Above all the quality of the work is most important. That will come at a price and it's worth it.