Aero question; 'Serrations' on the leading edges. | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Aero question; 'Serrations' on the leading edges.

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Fast_ian, Feb 26, 2016.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    8,018
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    #26 Bob Parks, Mar 10, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
    This takes me back to Byglund again. I asked him about the raked tips on the 707-320 and the 727 and he off-handedly said, " Oh, we think that it kids the wing into thinking that it's thinner." Essentially the same answer came from a younger aero guru in my old group who explained the winglets and double winglets do the same thing. They increase the span without literally increasing the span...kidding the wing into thinking that it's longer. And reducing the area for tip vortices to form. Whitcomb also invented the "shock bodies" on the Convair 990 that bled the drag producing waves off the wing upper surfaces. Not terribly effective.
     
  2. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
    23,397
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    Ian Anderson
    Thinking more, I got that completely ass about face! Sorry!

    They're trying to keep the airflow *away* from the diffuser..... Trying to stop any 'bleed' going underneath the thing.

    As we know, high speed air is 'low pressure' air & that's what they're looking to achieve back there.

    A little surprised no one picked me up on that! ;)

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  3. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 27, 2004
    16,505
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Jim Pernikoff
    And how do vortex generators fit into all of this?
     
  4. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Thank you...

    I remember the problems with the F-102 that were solved with the 102A version.
    Area rule.

    As I recall, the YF-102 would not even go supersonic before the changes.
     
  5. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
    23,397
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    Ian Anderson
    #30 Fast_ian, Mar 11, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
    Here you go;

    [ame]http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZlDnd3B1rhs[/ame]

    Pretty nice visual of what they're to do with the air behind the front wing.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  6. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,318
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    #31 tazandjan, Mar 11, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    T- Their first attempt was the XF-92A with a J-57 and she just had too much drag. The area ruled, wasp waisted F-102 with conical camber on the wings easily punched through the mach. The conical camber was area rule applied to a wing and had a dropped, conical leading edge which decreased the wing area the airflow say, thus decreasing drag. Both were applied to the F-102.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  7. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
    14,656
    The fabulous PNW
    Full Name:
    Han Solo
    My understanding is that the vortex generators, usually placed along the upper side of the leading edge of the wing, is to slow the air even further as it passes over the top of the wing thus increasing lift. (Something akin to an extended slat)

    I also seem to remember something about enhancing boundary layer as well. .

    I'm sure an expert will chime in shortly to straighten me out.
     
  8. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
    23,397
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    Ian Anderson
    +1

    I certainly don't claim to be any kind of "expert", but yeah, pretty much my understanding too. Except, obviously "inverted" in the case of race cars! ;)

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  9. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
    14,656
    The fabulous PNW
    Full Name:
    Han Solo
    Also, on supersonic aircraft like the F4 Phantom and SR-71 Blackbird they have movable devices on the air intakes to slow the air down so it can be directed into the intakes.

    It's possible that this is what the "vanes" are being used for on the F1 cars, to redirect air where they want it to go to enhance down force..
     
  10. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
    23,397
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    Ian Anderson
    +1

    This vid is from 2010 - *many* generations back in F1 terms - Compare the front wing I posted above with the one in the video; almost "quaint" back then! ;)

    Nevertheless, it's not a bad explanation of what they're trying to do.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYaIXWNOa_A[/ame]

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  11. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    8,018
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    #36 Bob Parks, Mar 11, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
    From what I learned about vortex generators is that the "rolling swirl" that they generated pushed the flow down on the wing surface and delayed separation thus maintaining laminar flow. Pretty neat, huh? I just made it up as I was typing. They fixed many problems on wings, stabilizers, and the 727 number two engine inlet.
     
  12. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
    14,656
    The fabulous PNW
    Full Name:
    Han Solo
    There he goes again....;)
    Thanks, I knew it was something like that.
     
  13. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 16, 2012
    24,153
    In the past
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Winglets are actually controlling the spillage of spanwise flow from the lower surface to the upper surface (high pressure to low pressure). This spillage of the lower flow around the tip is what creates the large tip vortices. Many early 'winglets' were just tip fences, e.g. 747-400. Aviation Partners were the first to introduce the concept of blended winglets (G-II, Hawker 800, 737, 767, Falcon) which not only controlled the tip flow but provided additional lift. They also now have a split winglet (up and down) operating on the newest 737NG's. Boeing, while ending up embracing the blended winglet idea on the 737's, has for the most part maintained that their raked tip geometry is just as efficient. This was first employed on the 767-400, and now also on the 747-8 and 787. However Boeing is apparently introducing a split winglet on the new 737Max.

    VG's create turbulent flow in order to delay flow separation. Aft of the VG's there is no longer laminar flow.
     
  14. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    8,018
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    In the center engine duct on the 727 , the throat of the duct took a sharp bend and it was getting lip stall because of the rapid curvature of the lower surface. The center engine was getting compressor stall at high flows so VG's were installed at the lip to get the air to "make the turn" instead of breaking away and stalling. So, it stayed attached to the duct and into the engine. I misused the word " laminar" and should have mentioned attachment that delayed separation. The first take off of the 727 sounded like a war going on when the center engine began a rapid sequence of compressor stalls. Wallick calmly reduced thrust on number two and kept going with the take off. No problem after VG's were installed.
     

Share This Page