The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Nonsense. Blinded by... what drives you on this now senseless crusade against Mr. Glickenhaus' car? johnhoughtaling sums it up perfectly - Mr. Forghieri's statements are not inconsistent, when you factor that he believes the number 0846 ceased to exist after Ferrari scrapped it. Whatever chassis remains were left were not associated any more with the number as far as Ferrari was concerned. Those same chassis remains of 0846 were rebuilt into Jim's car, as acknowledged by Mr. Forghieri.

It's consistent, it fits, nothing signed in error. You're wrong. Give it up.

 

This is the proof. MF said this was the chassis that won the 24. We can reference a history book to see the serial number that won the 24. Case closed.

Interesting that Napolis is not trying to create some provenance so that he can sell the car. He drives the thing, for Pete's sake. It is not going to sit in a museum somewhere without being driven.

 

Good for Jim / Napolis!

 

To take that one step further, he has not tried to hide anything which means even if he did sell it, the market would be able to fairly decide its value. It baffles me that this conversation is ongoing.

 

The entertainment value is undeniable, though....

 

Good comment and well stated.

 

looking forward for Targa Florio 2016. let us see if it will be there. cheers. clemente

 

That is a good way of encapsulating the current situation....... Lets see if the keyboard warriors can cope with just leaving it where we are now.

 

Based on the supplied documents Ing. Forghieri has clarified his findings to date regarding Mr Glickenhaus's chassis.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Point 4 is the kicker. Jim's car does indeed seem to have chassis parts in it from 0846. But is it enough to classify Jim's car as 0846 as a complete car?

Or should it be regarded as a fantastic reproduction containing parts of 0846.

 

Is that a current document, or is it still February in Italy?

>8^)
ER

 

I feel sorry for Ing. Forghieri, being pestered about this from all sides...

It sounds like everyone is in agreement now-- Jim, Ing. Forghieri, and miuriasv-- the car presently called "0846" is in fact built on top of the remains of the original Ferrari s/n 0846. End of story.

 

+1

+1. Although he did have a big smile on his face in the picture with Napolis.

 

Well, miurasv didn't acknowledge that when he presented the latest Italian/English letter, but the letter confirms exactly the interpretation suggested by johnhoughtaling yesterday - the car was a P3 #0846, was modified to be a P4, was the Daytona race winner, was damaged and the number retired by Ferrari, and the chassis remains are present in Jim's car but Ferrari won't call it 0846 because they retired that number when they scrapped the chassis.

It sure looks like Mr. Forghieri confirms that Jim's car is the remains of 0846, which miurasv has until now opposed and denied.

So what say you, Steve - will you now acknowledge that Jim's car is the car formerly known as 0846?

 

And, just as he was answering my enquiry of a few posts earlier, he says: I am supplying it in Italian and English, but the binding version is the Italian one. Makes sense, everything very clear, case closed.

Rgds

 

I have to say reading that again, to me it is saying:-

Yes the Daytona winning chassis is the one in Jims car, the red herring is in fact the modifications to convert from a p3 spec engine to a P4 spec one.

Jim/Sal saw these when they viewed 003 at Pipers, knew 0846 had been a p3 and set off after purchase on their quest to have the car confirmed as originally being 0846.

Based on MFs findings, by pure coincidence these engine install mods have been a red herring all along.

He indicates that when Ferrari converted 0846 from P3 to P4 spec they would have chopped out all the P3 mountings completely and installed new tubing to take just a P4 engine, something I have also said all along, no way would Ferrari have done such a poor job, this was always the fly in the ointment in my view.

The current mounting arrangement which includes p3 and p4 engine installation is not the best engineered, many have said it is not how Ferrari would have done it.

It now transpires it seems that this chassis post Le Mans/ post scrappage had actually been converted back again to a P3/P4 hybrid chassis wise.

The only person that would have needed those options was Piper as he had both engines!

So the car has sort of gone full circle, The initial reason Jim thought he had found 0846 was due to the options of mounting both P3 and P4 engines into 003, this reason was wrong, it did not identify that 003 was in fact 0846 but it turns out now that MF has seen the front of Jims car that the other factors plus him recognising frontal elements of the Daytona winner in Jims car confirm the chassis is the remains 0846 all along.

MF however wont call it 0846 as Ferrari officially scrapped that designation/allocation when they placed the original chassis post Le Mans in the scrap heap.

Phew.......what a drama

The question now is does Jim chop out the Piper chassis mods and put the car to full P4 spec chassis wise as Ferrari did back then, or keep them as part of the cars history?

 

Paul,

The italian version is "slightly less affirmative", shall we say?
Which is why it is, of course, so important to have it here!

Note that Mauro says that the italian version is the one that "makes faith", as we say in French and Italian, which can be translated as "is binding" in English, although it has slightly different legal implication, but...

He says: "modifiche diverse da quelle normalmente effettuate in Ferrari"
which should be translated as "modifications different of those that would have been normally done at Ferrari"

So he does not rules out completly that they were done by someone at Ferrari; what he says is that NORMALLY they would not have been done this way.

Rgds

 

Bravo, this is a very good summary IMHO. So amazingly it seems at this point that (part of the) chassis is indeed the real deal but Jim and others involved have been pointing to the wrong end of the car to prove that it is what they have claimed.

Maybe one day we'll know what exactly MF identified in Jim's car that was apparently unique to 0846. Or maybe Jim keeps that to himself which he couldnt be blamed for either.

 

It's a long time since I have read Jim's PDF but didn't it also point to repairs on the front of the chassis consistent with the repairs needed after the crash in the Targa Florio?

 

Yes, that and the changes to make a P3 into a P4 in the front half of the chassis, although not extensive are visible on Jim's car. Since they only made one P3 into a P4 this had to be that chassis, something now we can all agree upon, that the car Jim has is based on the remains of 0846.

I agree with Paul500 that the modifications were most likely made by Piper so that he could (as he did) run the car with either a P3 or a P4 style engine and that to be perfectly correct as the car was run at Daytona he could mod the chassis to be the same as it was at the time. But I also agree that it's not a big deal that the car was modified to take either engine since it is a part of its history. Race cars get lots of modifications over their lifetime and in both a functional and practical matter the mods aren't a big deal.

While Jim originally pointed to these mods as proof that his car was based on 0846 we now know that this was not correct, but at the same time, the verification that most of the chassis is based on 0846 is like he lost the battle but won the war.

Lastly, the car is what it is and Jim has been most forthright in presenting it as the salvaged remains of 0846, which it quite obviously is.

 

0846 was transformed with new tubing to properly accept a P4 engine. The chassis was identical to a P4 at the rear. If Piper wanted to run 2 sets of engines why on earth would he rip out the newly installed P4 tubing to match the P4 engine mounts and replace it with P3 tubing that used to be in it? All he would have had to do was use the bolt on adaptors on the P4 mountings to accept a P3 type engine in the same way as has been done to do it the other way round.

 

Who gives a $h!t. Admit you were wrong and more forward. Living in the past, on incorrect assumptions, doesn't do you any favors.

 

You were successful(?) in corresponding with Mr. Forghieri, have you tried the same with David Piper? Does he have some pieces to the puzzle? I believe he has answers, that for some reason, he has decided to take to his grave.