The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Italians.....use a scrapped chassis as a base for 0003 and sell it as new! Lol like Ferrari themselves did in the 50/60s

 

I don't think that anyone took a scrapped chassis and sold it as new.
Surely, someone of Piper's experience and knowledge would have seen that this chassis was not new, if it wasn't new.
Look at JG's description of the damage on it.
pg.20 - "In your chassis. You can also see where it was modified at different times by different welders..." Another thing you could see was that the section that likely was burned/destroyed in Amon's 1967 Le Mans incident had also been replaced with tubes of a different dimension and character by a different welder as well.”
Do you seriously for one minute believe that Piper would not have noticed those repairs?
So, what do you want Piper to say?
Nathan

 

Maybe Piper nothing
I agree that he would have known or his mechanic the chassis was 'used' and rebuilt/repaired/modified.
Piper did not wreck 0003....
JG did not modify 0003 or faken old welds/damages.
As said I do believe the chassis contains 0846 tubes or is there any other P4 with a new/spare chassis with the same welds/damages to the chassis.
Maybe I missed it here but do we know how many chassis are built?
For swb gto and testa rossa we know Ferrari had some spare chassis.

 

0003 does not = 0846.

 

Correct it got a new destination as 0003 as a repaired scrapped chassis with new tubing/mods

 

But it does carry a 0846 chassis tag, and the factory hasn't said otherwise.

 

The 0846 chassis tag was put on there by Mr Glickenhaus. Ferrari and MF have said that the number 0846 does not exist anymore. MF has said that JG's chassis is without factory number as per many statements.

 

Aah there is your pain
Maybe if JG takes of that tag all is fine then.

 

As both Ferrari and MF have said that the number 0846 does not exist any more JG's chassis has no right to carry an 0846 identity tag.

 

MF said:

"I hope that nobody can define in future the Mr Glickenhaus P4 with the 0846, this number do not exist anymore for every Ferrari expert."

 

Give him a break. He is 85 after all

 

My sixpence worth. The car is a great credit to Jim what ever it is. Piper only confirmed he built what Enzo said he could build. If the new chassis contained repaired pieces of 0846 he would definitely have know it. If it does include these pieces then Piper is not the sort of man that would go against Enzo's permission and subsequently claim that 0003 was actually a rebuild of the purged 0864 simply for profit.

 

Believe me when I say I feel very fortunate to have had the the opportunity to not only see him and his 917 in person but to see him drive that car around Daytona.

The post you quoted was in response to a post where it was said the Jim G. needs to let Piper show him how his car should be driven as if to suggest Piper would get in it and thrash it around like it was 1967 again.

The point of my post was to say that under practically the same circumstances both drove the same. Piper didn't drive the 917 like it is supposed to be driven and that is perfectly understandable under the conditions. Saying Jim needs to be shown how to drive his car really doesn't give Jim the credit he deserves for taking his car out on the track and turning a few exhibition laps. I'm sure it was quite a thrill for Jim to return his car to Daytona and experience some of what the drivers did back in 1967 gaining him an even greater appreciation.

The real motive behind my posts was to be able to say I've seen the legends in person and post the pictures to prove it

 

I spoke to David's wife Liz yesterday and today. She said David had had 3 replica chassis made in Modena a long time ago. When they sold the car/chassis to Mr Glickenhaus they sold it as a replica and he knew he was buying a replica, not a genuine Ferrari chassis. David had helped him with some paperwork to get the car road registered in the US. She also said she saw the car with Mr Glickenhaus at Amelia Island a few years ago and he told her that the chassis was really that of 0846 and was found in the Ferrari dump. Mrs Piper told him that anyone who believes that is "Away with the Fairies" and she laughed out loud.

She does find it offensive when Mr Glickenhaus states that David didn't know what he had as he knew every inch of the chassis. She said David would have absolutely known if he was being palmed off with a used chassis from a dump when he had ordered a new replica to be made. She is quite rightly proud of David's Ferrari knowledge/achievements and stated he's only been racing, maintaining and rebuilding them for over 50 years as well as having a number of replicas made.

When I said that Mauro Forghieri had said that the chassis contains parts of the chassis that he modified in December 1966 to accept a P4 engine and that he recognised something on the front end that identified it as that car she said "Good for Mr Glickenhaus that Mauro Forghieri has been manipulated into believing what he has stated."

I also spoke to David himself today and he confirmed that the chassis he sold Mr Glickenhaus was a replica he'd had made in Modena and that it wasn't made by the Ferrari people but was made properly by a good chassis maker. He couldn't remember the name of the chassis maker as it was so long ago. He said the P3 and P4 chassis were very similar but differing in track. He also mentioned something about the P3 having an unsightly box on the front end. I asked if the P3 and P4 had different engine mount positions and he said they did but didn't really want to talk about it any more.

 

You really should include the whole statement, as painful as it is for you. MF said the chassis is the P4 chassis formerly numbered 0846 - yes, the number 0846 does not exist because Ferrari struck it from the books when they recorded the chassis as scrapped, but the chassis that was numbered as 0846 does still exist, as confirmed by MF.

Or are YOU now going to state that MF was lying or mistaken?

 

Steve, did David Piper say why the chassis he sold Jim had the crude modification for both P3 and later P4 engines, and who did the retro work if it did not come that way from the chassis builder he commissioned?

If he is struggling to recall then I imagine his mechanics could shed some light on the matter.

Has MF confirmed yet what he actually recognised of the front of the chassis?

 

I did mention the engine mountings but David said it was long ago and didn't really want to talk about it any more.

MF hasn't confirmed what he saw on the front end to recognise it as the one he modified in December 1966 although I did ask him.

 

ha fatto bingo. cheers. clemente

 

As I have said previously M. F. in his letter makes no reference to any particular chassis number.I am sure that at the time he modified a P3/4 series chassis his least concern was the chassis number he was working on. It's perfectly possible he did see the sn at the time but this was of no importance.Needless to say at the time he had more important things on his mind. And it was 50 years ago.Let's just leave this as "there is no documentation or other source available indicating the original chassis number. for this chassis sold to Jim Glickenhaus by David Piper. The key word here is "original". This is exactly why MF made no reference in his letter of any chassis number. End of story. tonga's crew

 

Once again, the accuser is veiling his thoughts/accusations by using other people's words. Mauro Forgheri signed his statement, it's public for all to view. Until he was driven away from FerrariChat by this type of thig, Jim - as Napolis - signed off on what he said. It's convenient to make serious personal accusations such as "Good for Mr. Glickenhaus that Mauro Forgheri has been manipulated into believing what he has stated." when they can be said to come from the mouth of a third party. It plays into miurasv's narrative all too well, while not being binding in any way.

IMO there is a real conflict of interest here, between Piper (and his wife, apparently), and Jim Glickenhaus. We will probably always get the "I don't want to talk about it anymore" response from DP regarding that chassis being - at least in part - 0846. On one hand people will say he is very knowledgeable about the cars and so would never have been sold a scrapped "wreck" without knowing about it. That fits, until the man who designed these chassis back in the day, so has at least equal if not greater amount of knowledge about the cara confirms, with a signed letter, that that chassis - at least part of it - is original. Who is going to "admit defeat" first? Is it really impossible that Piper was mistaken? Glickenhaus has made considerable headway in proving that that is the case. The Forgheri letter is a big step forward in that respect. Enough for it to have elicited alledged statements of manipulation by someone close to the knowledgeable, but not infallible, seller. To me the fairy statement and the manipulation statement seems unnecessarily aggressive, but then let me remind you of another recent anecdote:

Remember that video made by the dealer who butchered 0858 "back into a P4" where there were some snarky comments about those who thought he had made a crap decision - Jim being one of them. IIRC David Piper helped him build that "P4". Like someone has said, the 0858 (as it stands today) lovers seem to be the 0846 haters. Funny how that goes.

 

So Jim criticizes Piper and John Collins for butchering 0858 and Collins can't resist but mention it on his video and the guy that was banned from this very forum for being a Talacrest shill who wants to work in the vintage car world sets about trolling Jim on every forum that he can find him.

Mmm...

 

Merstheman

List all the original components that have a continuous history in Jims 0846 as it stands today compared to how it left Ferrari.

Then do the same with 0858.

That answers your question quite simply regarding both examples.

 

You know, three frames, stacked for shipping, and with a fresh coat of black paint...would be a lot of detailed examination, of things like diameter section, weld quality and so forth.

Jim has had a lot more time and attention, having lived with it ever since the Piper sale.

That made this an interesting story, beginning 2004.

Lately the repeated bantering and repeated requests for "just the right thing, to please me (MiuraSV) " has made this thread start to feel like a bad date....

The movie is just about to roll the final credits....