The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Perhaps they have seen Jim's. And decided all is good, if they are admitting it for the 100th. Seems that is the consensus.

Perry

 

From the wikipedia page:

in Ferrari S.p.A. manufacturing P4 parts that Glickenhaus used in the restoration of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846. In 2015 France's TF1 covered the 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis as it exists today for a Television special. In 2015 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 was invited to The Greenwich Concours d'Élegance.
On March 14th 2016 Mauro Forghieri Confirmed in writing, in front of witnesses and on video that the chassis in the Glickenhaus P3/P4 is the original P3/P4 Chassis of the car that won The 1967 24 Hours of Daytona.

http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Mauro0846.pdf


Ferrari 330 P4, s/n 0856
The legal identity of this car was further confirmed on March 31st 2016 by the official organizers of The Anniversary of The 100Th Targa Floiro sanctioned by The Italian Government as "1967 FERRARI P3/P4 chassis n. 0846"



Here is the more detailed version of the letter by Ing. Mauro Forghieri. See here: View image: MF23 2 16 Miurasvjota (talk) 14:02, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

0856 remains in its original state and is owned by Lawrence Stroll
0858 was converted into a 350 Can-Am by Ferrari but is now fitted with a replica P4 Coupe body.
0860 was also converted by Ferrari to a 350 Can-Am but is presently wearing a replica P4 Spyder body and is in a French automobile museum
The Ferrari 330 P4 made a notable appearance in the video game Forza Motorsport 2. The P4 in Forza Motorsport 3 is patterned on P3/4 0846 which James Glickenhaus made available to Microsoft and James Glickenhaus is credited by Microsoft in Forza Motorsport for making his P3/4 0846 available to them for this purpose.

The P4 also appears in the video game Gran Turismo 5, as one of the most expensive 20 million classics on the game.

P4 Replicas[edit]






I again put the link to the more detailed document by MF on the wikipedia page as above but NOT in bold and again somebody has removed it. This somebody doesn't want this more detailed version out there. I wonder who the "somebody" is????

It's only fair that people know the whole story don't you think?

 

Your version of "fairness" is laughable.

Bye.

 

Muirasv, Wow, your tenacity in policing 0846 history in the public domain is embarrassing.

Please show some respect to Jim, MF, the Pipers, and others including this forum and its members when participating in the debate.

The discussion should be somewhat factual, with concessions from both sides, at all times we should be objective and unbiased. Don't flog a dead horse!

For Me, Jims car is beautiful, is a Ferrari and has history, he is enjoying it.

 

Below is from the wikipedia Talk page: The "somebody" is now claiming that the document dated 23rd February, 2016 has been superseded which is absolutely not true. Mauro Forghieri emailed it to me to make things clear on the 23rd of March, 2016 so is very valid.

"The legal identity of this car was further confirmed on March 31st 2016 by the official organizers of The Anniversary of The 100Th Targa Floiro sanctioned by The Italian Government as "1967 FERRARI P3/P4 chassis n. 0846" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.54.104.202 (talk) 17:33, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

But Ing. Mauro Forghieri said in bold writing that "it must be concluded that, for all legal purposes SN #0846 has ceased to exist. Your car cannot be therefore designated as 0846." Miurasvjota (talk) 13:25, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

The above poster also tried to claim that: "Here is the more detailed version of the letter by Ing. Mauro Forghieri." See here: View image: MF23 2 16 Miurasvjota (talk) 14:02, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

This is not true. It's not " the more detailed version of the letter by Ing. Mauro Forghieri." It's a totally different letter with an earlier date that is superseded by a later one which is quite clear and confirmed in writing, in front of witnesses and on video that the chassis in the Glickenhaus P3/P4 is the original P3/P4 Chassis of the car that won The 1967 24 Hours of Daytona. The chassis that won The 24 Hours of Daytona is chassis N. 0846.

This later letter is quite clear and speaks for itself.

http://p45c.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Mauro0846.pdf

MF is not a lawyer and his opinion " For all legal purposes the number 0846 has ceased to exist." is not true as of 2002 as a clear result of a legal proceeding began in 2000, outlined below, that Ferrari has accepted by their clear public record actions, also outlined below.

Since 2002, Ferrari S.p.A. has continuously published the fact on their official web site....."

 

It seems Ferrari has stricken 0846 'legally' from their books. It would also seem that this chassis was 'resurrected' from the trash heap and does exist, except for the legal 'scrapping of Ferrari.

It seems you want to stomp your feet and continue to say, "Not Fair" and no one knows quite why. It is tiresome.

Perry

 

That is not a correct assessment.

0846 has ceased to exist. That is the factory's official stance no matter what any other entity may claim. Mr. Forghieri in his statements also repeats this.

That someone has a new piece of paper to waive around does not negate that there is also another document that the same author states remains valid. The latest one is not disavowing the prior document.

It remains an open question how Mr. Forghieri reached his conclusion. No one is making a claim that he has physically seen the car in person. What we do have evidence of is it that there were some photographs. But none of the displayed photographs show anything but the rear of the car. The statements we all have seen is that the telltale item for Mr. Forghieri was something in the front chassis area.

Last I knew the owner of this car has a Gulfstream. Considering what is at stake here it would be nothing for him to the jet bring Mr. Forghieri to the car to make an in-person review in lieu of some assortment of photographs.

Mr. Forghieri may be correct in his conclusion. But the process of how he went from A to B to reach this conclusion is far from clear. This is a "story" car and to remove this the evidence must withstand scrutiny.

 

I think his motivation for doing so was exposed quite some time ago. Wasn't it the reason he was banned in the first place?

 

The letters are not inconsistent, they do support each other. The statement you quoted in the mess of your post is correct, but you so far have refused to acknowledge this.

MF is clear throughout both documents - JG's car is built on the chassis that won the 1967 Daytona race. That chassis was 0846. Because Ferrari scrapped the chassis, the number can not be used. However, it remains the chassis that won Daytona 67, that was known as 0846.

Agreed? As MF has stated and clarified and validated, do you acknowledge that JG's car is the 1967 Daytona winning car formerly known as 0846?

Yes or no?

 

why is italian language so complicated for ferrari drivers ? cheers. clemente

 

My recollection is that it was an assumed motivation that was subsequently shown to not be the case. Assumptions will not move this discussion.

 

I understand Mr Kennedy. And, I agree, maybe JG should offer to fly MF to see the car in person. The only point I was trying to make is, the chassis exists, whether Ferrari says otherwise or not. Officially and legally, they wrote it off, but unless you destroy it, it still exists, no?

It would be great to have MF finally say what he believes it is, after a personal inspection.

Perry

 

Jim is flying the car to Sicily. Even better. Hopefully MF will be there to see in person what he has already confirmed from pictures. Then miurasv will have to find some other minor detail to nitpick.

 

Better still the car is going to Sicily this year.

They will all have some good vino together, and no doubt discuss a certain Audi salesman!

 

That is really quite unfair.

Yes, it goes to Sicily. And, yes, it could be looked at there, although no one is saying that is going to happen. BUT, this is all happening after the claim has been made and that has seemingly ben used to gain an entry that would have otherwise been denied.

So, what would happen if upon personal inspection in the flesh, new questions arose by Mr. Forghieri? What now?

Now also remember that the owner of this car built the substance of his logic this was the remnants of a car formerly known as 0846 based upon details in the area aft of the firewall. Yet, this is an area that does not support the asserted storyline.

 

He ran the event years ago, I don't think the two are related, actually??

 

I am no longer going to participate here, but there were three things.

The engine mountings, water tubing and so forth.
The fire damage, after the Lemans incident.
The rear frame repairs, after the wall impact in Sicily, which actually twisted the frame from "perfect square" which remains to this day.

Piper would have accepted a 'new frame', that did not sit on a floor, without rocking?
It seems that is the case.

As long as the corner weighting works out, you probably wouldn't notice, from behind the wheel.

I am just tired of the "tone" of this thread.
Maybe Steve needs to step aside for a new cowriter, to present "new facts".....and certainly leave Mr. and Mrs. Piper alone, before they change the home number.

 

Targa Florio in invitational....It's the Mille Miglia, that is the 'tighter' event, in my mind.

 

To be eligible for the Mille Miglia a car or a specimen of it has to be made in or before 1957 and taken part in the event, I believe.

 

If you start from an assumption that the car is not #0846 then a simple logic that all that is wrong with Jim's letter from MF doesn't prove anything. But then again the reverse is also true. This issue will NEVER be answered to anything near actual proof since if Jim gets all his ducks in a row and had scientific proof it is #0846, certain other posters will simply point out that Ferrari scrapped it and the whole entire pointless diatribe will continue. AFAIK we the readers have no proof that MF has not in fact examined the car, we only have MiuraSV' assertion that MF stated at some point in the recent past that MF had not physically surveyed #0846. Now is anyone going to suggest that I should give MiuraSV assertion more credence than any other posters? Claims that MF was mislead? Really? How?

FWIW, using semantics as a way to argue a point ensures the average reader is discombobulated* and that sucks because after all claim is such a loaded word. Person one looks at claim as in it is claimed #0846 contains real parts are real and that makes it real and person two looks at claims that #0846 is real but it can never be real because it was scrapped and both statements are accurate. That leaves the central issue of what is real as a matter of perspective and for some posters there will never be an acceptable answer.

Leaves me feeling that this entire argument is now;

A - slightly above a sandpit argument between toddlers with one group saying did too and another saying did not
B - entirely pointless since it cannot be absolutely proven either way

* I just had to discombobulated in there, couldn't help myself.

 

We'd have heard by now if MF had physically examined the chassis. Don't you think the former Movie Director would have made a video of MF examining the chassis if he had indeed physically examined the chassis? It is stated that there is a video of the 14th March, 2016 confirmation. I am looking forward very much to seeing it.

From the wikipedia page: "On March 14th 2016 Mauro Forghieri Confirmed in writing, in front of witnesses and on video that the chassis in the Glickenhaus P3/P4 is the original P3/P4 Chassis of the car that won The 1967 24 Hours of Daytona."

 

Despite making claims that it was disgusting that JG would dare question Ing Forghieri's recollections, it seems that now miurasv (and Jeff Kennedy) are the ones who refuse to accept two written and signed statements from MF testifying that JG's car has the chassis that won Daytona 67. MF's statements are clear, so now they want to know how MF identified the chassis.

To what end? Neither are just curious... It's obvious that both are looking for some way to throw doubt on MF's statements in order to invalidate the confirmation already provided. Who are the disgusting ones questioning MF's credibility now?

 

Yes the M.M. is a tighter event to qualify for.No P series Ferrari can qualify. End of story. I have been to two M.M.s in the late 1990s. I can still remember the sight of a poor D Type Jaguar driver sitting in the pouring rain in the growing darkness in a giant traffic jam with at least 200 klms. still to go to reach Rome. tonga's crew