Formula for Success: Multilevel modelling of F1 Driver/Constructor 1950-2014

"Best ever" can only "ever" be a matter of opinion.

For me, it isn't just about number of wins, poles or podiums; points scored and championships. It's about versatility (racing not just in F1), development capability, length of career, etc., etc.

That brings it down in my opinion, to three drivers who could develop and win in everything they drove, over decades....ready?

Andretti
Foyt*
Gurney



Flame away, then. I got me nomex bloomers on

*I know. Not F1.

 

+1

I'll concur with Mario; One of the few Colin actually listened to.
Don't know enough about Foyt.
Dan was da man!

Cheers,
Ian

 

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics" M.Twain

 

Please see post #25....

"Great minds" again?

Cheers,
Ian

 

LOL...must read through all posts! We're on the same page though!

 

Happy 85th Mr. Gurney ! (April 13th). One of a kind.

 

I agree about Mario Andretti; outstanding in any category. A long and successful career.
He was wanted at Ferrari, at Lotus, and by other teams as well. It's a pity he finished his F1 career driving the uncompetitive Alfa. A very fast sportscar driver too. Mario was a clever negotiator as well, and picked up the right team and the right car most of the time.

AJ Foyt was mostly unknown outside the USA, and maybe too specialised in Indy car. But a very solid performer with a long career span. The 4 Indy wins were no fluke, Ajay knew how to drive.

Dan Gurney, a lot of potential never fulfilled. He changed team too often in F1 to have a real shot at the title. Could you believe he was a Ferrari driver at the begining? Not many GPs to his name. He never drove the best car in GP. Good in sport cars though, but not consistant enough. Unlike Mario, Dan took several wrong turns on his career path.

 

To me he was, and to most of his peirs,team bosses and journalists back in the day he was also, so perhaps i'm not that far from the truth.

 

I don't recall people saying that Gilles Villeneuve was the new Messiah at the time. Like I said, he was very spectacular, fast but far too erratic to reach great heights, I think. The speed was there, undeniably, but not the racecraft, IMO. Too much "seat of the pant" driving and not enough thinking going into it compared to the multi champions who raced against him (Niki Lauda, Nelson Piquet, Alain Prost).

Gilles Villeneuve's results were 6 wins over a 5 years period.
I will accept that Ferrari didn't give him the best car every year, but even then...

But I can accept that he was your favourite driver, probably because of his style.

My favourites aren't always the best in the field either sometimes.

 

Gilles was loved by the Tifosi and many other F1 fans because he was an F1 barnstormer who drove by the seat of his pants, and never, ever gave up - Regardless of what fell off his car!

His "Never say die" attitude to racing in an era of incredibly fast, and incredibly dangerous cars made him a legend - The last of the truly gladiatorial F1 drivers!

You state that he only won six races in 5 years, but that doesn't tell the whole story! - Just one of Gille's laps is worth at least 10 of any other drivers when it comes to being entertaining!

Yes he wasn't perfect, he often got it wrong, and at times it seemed he was more determined to win a lap at the cost of a race, but God he was a true racer!

I always remember an article written in a magazine about Gilles and it's headline couldn't have been more apt: "A Comet Named Gilles!".

Would I ever rate Christian Fittipaldi as a better F1 driver than Gilles Villeneuve? - You must be joking!

I can't remember a single race Fittipaldi ever competed in! - In fact, I can't remember a single lap he ever did! (You definitely can't say the same about Gilles!)

As I've always said: GILLES VILLENEUVE: TOO YOUNG TO DIE - TOO FAST TO LIVE!

 

I don't tend to see people through rose-tinted glasses, even when they are outstanding.
Neither do I wax-lyrics over them.

I don't think I disrespect the memory of Gilles Villeneuve by saying he wasn't the best. He had many followers, and his style was quite spectacular, but that's about it. He was from another era, I will accept that. Barnstorming and heroics were already out when he started to drive.

Drivers like Lauda, Prost or even Piquet were better racers than he was, and the results show that as well. You don't win a race over one lap, even less a championship. Also, bringing back a crippled car to the pits and littering the track with debris doesn't prove anything; it's passing the chequered flag first that matters, that and accumulating points over a season.

If his fans want to call him the best, so be it.
But don't be surprised if I have a different opinion.

 

Do I claim Gilles to be the best? - Please show Me where I have stated that! (Michael Schumacher is the best - His WDC's show that!)

What I have done, is explain the love for Gilles - That's totally different to claiming him to be the best.

Is it your opinion though that Christian Fittipaldi was a better F1 driver than Villeneuve?


Oh, and you've made yet another error!:

My glasses are not "rose tinted" - They are Ferrari Rossa-Corsa tinted!

 

My comments were in reply to Furoni's posts # 14, # 15 and # 23.

Why you felt the need to interfere in our conversation, I don't know.

So, I will leave it at that ...

 

Thanks for the reminder!




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Very astute analysis.

My selection of Gurney was also influenced by his great success as a constructor and team owner in multiple series, and the apparent ease with which he won in just about everything he drove. I think he did not have the compelling will to win at any cost that Andretti and Foyt did.

I truly believe that AJ would have been world champion in the right team if he had decided to spend a few seasons in Europe.

As for Super Mario, when taken in the context of a career....simply unmatchable.

 

Wiiliam, no one is trying to change your opinion, every opinion is as valid as the other but drivers like Prost, lauda, Sheckter, Arnoux, Jabouille, Rosberg, they all said Gilles was the best...by far...if you wan´t i can put here their exact quotes....

 

What people write and say under emotion after the violent death of someone like Gilles Villeneuve is one thing. But this is subjective.

The facts are something else. Race results are objective.

I stick to the facts.

I couldn't say a bad word about Gilles Villeneuve, but at the same time I don't think he was the best driver of his era.

 

I have severalquotes from before his death....Like Arnoux after the 79 gp when he said he didn't mind loosing the batleagainst Gillers,because he knewhe had been figthing with the very best, or Lafitte in the Glen 79,when he was watching amonsgst other drivers gILLES IN THE RAIN fromthe pitwall,or Gordon Murray after Gilleswin in Jarama 81,or Didier Pironiwhen joining Ferrari,or Jody....or the fact bthe Gilles was able to choose any team he wanted todrive for (except Brabham since he and Bernie hated each other).
Also i think it's safe to say no other driver in f.1 history would have won at Monaco and Jarama with the 126 ck.

 

WAIT A MINUTE!!!! HH Frentzen and Nick Heidfeld are on the list, but MIKA HAKKINEN ISN'T?

Wow...this list is worse that I thought originally. "Quick Nick" in the top 20. but 2x WDC Hakkinen is spared from it. Not an iota of credibility beyond containing the properly spelled names of F1 drivers (Except it mispells "Gilles Villeneuve" as "Jacques Villeneuve" lol)

 

Gotta be honest, seeing a few of the earlier comments about it I decided not to bother; Zero credibility.

And these clowns get *paid* for coming up with this nonsense? Wish I could get such a gig.

Cheers,
Ian

 

Gille's rivals at the time all rated him incredibly highly, and were often mesmerised by his driving ability.

By the same token they often also thought he was a bit of a crazy b:censored:d in a car, but they still respected him, even when they been banging wheels with him! (How often does that happen these days?)

This is something that people forget when they talk about what Gilles achieved in his all too brief career and life, he drove some of the biggest pieces of junk that Ferrari ever made! - But he got results with them!

Let's be honest here, some of those cars were downright scary, almost uncontrollable machines, and Gilles just rose to the challenge without whining and b:censored:cthing about them.

Was he the best ever? - Statistically speaking no, but for balls out, real-man drives guaranteed to entertain, there was no one better! Not Schumacher, not Senna, not Hamilton, non of them!

I feel sorry for those F1 fans who never got to see him race "back in the day", either at the circuits or on TV, because they missed out on seeing something very special! (Do yourselves a favour and watch some clips of Gilles racing!)

I'm sure william will say it's just "rose tinted", romanticised fanboy nonsense, but for some of us, we know Gilles was special, and we'll love him forever!

 

Quotes are just opinions; they are by nature subjective.
I am not really interested by what people say to support their opinion, or just to praise someone.

How can you say with certitude for example "it's safe to say no other driver in f.1 history would have won at Monaco and Jarama with the 126 ck"? That is just a supposition. It's just poetic license, not hard fact.

But let's examine your claim.
Gilles Villeneuve did 4 full seasons in F1.

In 1978, he finished 9th in the championship with 17 points and 1 win. His team mate at Ferrari, Carlos Reutemann finished 3rd, with 48 points and 3 wins.
GV wasn't better than Reuteman, as the results show.

In 1979, Villeneuve finished 2nd, with 47 points and 3 wins. Jody Schekter was champion with 51 points and also 3 wins.
GV wasn't better than Schekter, as the results show.

Disastrous year for the Scuderia in 1980. No win, no podium, GV finished 14th, Schekter 19th. Alan Jones was champion, with Piquet 2nd (3 wins.
GV wasn't better than Jones or Piquet (who became 3 times WDC!!!) as the results show.

In 1981, Villeneuve finished 7th, with 25pts and 2 wins. Nelson Piquet was WDC with 3 wins.
GV wasn't better than Piquet as the results show.

So, my question is, how can he have been the best?
I think it's an exaggeration to wax lyrics around his demise, and pay some sort of tribute to the brilliant racer he was.

Arnoux and Lafitte may have been in awe about GV, but the stats don't back up their claim that he was the best.

 

No driver who lost a race is ever going to say, "Well I lost, and the guy who beat me is the most useless pillock out there." The sting of defeat is soothed somewhat by the self delusion that you lost, but it's ok because you lost to the best. So what we're missing here is the context of how many drivers said someone other than GV was the best. I'm not going to do the research because I just don't care enough.

 

They have stats + algorithms to back up their findings most people here are going on "gut feelings/rose-tinted glasses". Plus all Top xx lists always bring out the "HOW DARE THEY LEAVE THIS GUY OUT THEY KNOW NOTHING" responses



You just need a PhD

 

Stats are meant to convince us that we didn't really see what we thought we saw. If you're telling me that Hiedfeld, Frentzen and C.Fittipaldi are better than Hakkinen, Lauda, E.Fittipaldi, etc, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Fittipaldi scored a total of 12 points in F1...how do you defend the algorithm rating him so highly?

Im going to assume that the assumptions the formulas were built around are the culprit.