The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

You are only displaying again your lack of balance and perspective. Now That M.F is going in your way again, he is "The master witness" again, and could not be challenged. Which is exactly what You have Just done for weeks in trying to have him modify a statement he did... You may know classic Ferraris very well, but You really are not displaying any logic at all.
I qualified M.F as a "genius", was it disrepectful? Only by the respect You claim, leave him out of This right.
Rgds

 

If it was for sale, what would you pay for it. I have been to Jims shop, home, seen his cars, ect.

I am nobody, but to me it is a recreation and an absolutely beautiful car.

But the only thing which really tells the tale is what would someone pay for it. I mean a person looking for a significant Ferrari. Do you believe it's a 25 million+ dollar car.

 

To be fair, I don't think Steve ever questioned MF's expertise, he only questioned the information MF had to make his determination.

 

Of course. But he has also proved to anyone here That M.F was able to write a statement "making faith", and sign it, on fragile evidence. Which I think could have been avoided out of sheer respect for the man, and shows That Steve could simply not decide now That M.F is once again his "Ultimate expert", having himself convincily demonstrated precisely that he is not
You can't have it both ways, sorry. Logic is not working on variable geometry.
Rgds

 

yes 100%
From less genuine classic ferraris are made

 

It was James Glickenhaus that got MF to write a statement on fragile evidence, NOT ME and therefore him that should have avoided this situation out of sheer respect for him. Please direct your message to Mr Glickenhaus. You keep going on about balance. Well let me tell you that your reasoning is unbalanced and I do not understand your logic either. I never questioned MF's expertise. To me he has always been the ultimate expert on the car that he oversaw the design of.

 

Has Ing. Forghieri drafted/signed a more recent document re: this car's status?

 

He has not signed a more recent document but my communications have been after the signed letter in writing, by email to be precise. Should anyone wish to verify the content I am sure Ing. Forghieri will oblige.

 

Correct.

 

The factory themselves have made the same claims using even less to work with than Jim had.

 

How can the factory make claims using less to work with than nothing which is what Jim has?

 

No to #15885, but yes to #0846. I think a different standard applies to vintage race cars because they were frequently wrecked badly and rebuilt in period without anyone ever thinking to question whether the cars still retained the rights to their original serial number. Ferrari cancelled the SN because they thought it was destroyed. If Jim's car has meaningful portions of the original chassis, then my opinion is that Ferrari made a bookkeeping error in cancelling the SN based upon an incorrect presumption that it was destroyed. MF would seem to be the undisputed expert on what the chassis is (or is not), but I would argue that he is not the expert (nor is any individual person) on whether Jim's car can be legally called 0846 if it is actually based upon portions of the original chassis.

Would 0846 be certified by Classiche if it has portions the original chassis? I honestly don't think anyone involved views Classiche as an authoritative expert, so I don't think they really care very much whether or not Classiche would certify it. That said, Classiche would probably not certify it as is, but if Classiche had done the exact same work that Jim has done, they probably would certify it (assuming the chassis contained portions of 0846 to give them some rationale to resurrect the SN).

 

But anyone should question the said expertise: How could we trust a hundred per cent the memories of a man who was overseeing a hundred of different things each day, managing a dozen of engineers and could not possibly be expected to have an exact memory of minute détails? I always said since the beginning That he could not be trusted to That point! Come on, he is not God the almighty. From time to time he can be wrong, as You have yourself convincily demonstrated. So you cannot, by any mean, decide That his statements are the final word. They are statements, nothing more, made by a remarkable man, a genius in fact; another clue, but not a proof.
Again, There Will NEVER BE any PROOF. You are free to make up your own mind, and
others to follow. Or not
Rgds

 

So now finally you are willing to state that you believe Jim has NO original metal from 0846 despite Forghieri remarking that he recognized a particular section?

Please feel free to share any new claim from Forghieri that undermines his previous claim about the chassis.

As an aside, Ferrari have claimed that a complete fake is an original so yes, there isn't much less one can work with than that.

 

You have obviously not read or understood my posts 7901 and 7967.

 

I have read both posts. Given the context I find it a tad odd that you prefer to post your opinion or interpretation of what he has supposedly sent to you rather than the man's own words themselves.

 

Pls pls pls someone open an fchat poll on the matter? Something on the lines of who is right, Miurasv or JG?

 

They put the chassis into the bin. What are they supposed to do, melt it down? Remember back then it was worth nothing.

I do not agree with this comment, based on my response above. BTW there are a few one off show cars that were thought destroyed that were saved by the wrecker yard owner/worker.

We are simply talking about a Ferrari supplied serial number, nothing more, nothing less. Its just a production number. It will not be the first and only anomaly in Ferraris records.

If Ferrari want to, a brand new 0846 could be built; but they won't because they closed the book on this number.

I see no issue with Ferrari's records saying it was destroyed and IF indeed there is some of the original chassis in Jim's #003 then yeah some of #0846 has survived.

But I'm sick of this thread ...
Pete

 

Scrapped, not destroyed.

When something is destroyed it is no more. When something is scrapped it still exists and is able to be rescued from the trash.

 

More like stolen from the trash. Anything scrapped is done so for a reason such as being considered structurally unsafe or unusable. Any part/parts of a chassis taken from the trash bin will never be able to take the number it had. A remade car using those parts can never take the number that mother Ferrari cancelled.

 

Amen.

 

'Mother Ferrari' also gave another car the chassis number 0900 in period and yet you still believe Piper's replica to be a genuine Ferrari P4 carrying the same chassis number.

Weird how that works...

As an aside, any joy in getting permission to post Forghieri's own words in his correspondents with you or are you going to simply leave your interpretation up?

 

Nonsense.. After Le Mans there were but a few races left in the season. The factory wasn't going to field all of the remaining cars at these races after the large effort at Le Mans. Remember, Ford wasn't running at these events and to win the championship Ferrari had to run one or two cars at the remaining events and have a good finish. With the Fords not running there was no competition, all they had to do was show up and finish and they got the points. Since the cars were made obsolete by the upcoming rule changes there was no reason to put any effort into rebuilding 0846, it wasn't needed and wasn't going to be raced. It was stripped of its useful parts and the damaged chassis was thrown into the trash.

Had there been a reason to rebuild the car it may well have been salvaged, but in those days old race cars were of no value. It was more economical to throw it away and spend time on new cars. The old man never had much use for old race cars once they were obsolete.

0846 was like a 10 year old car that gets in a fender bender. The insurance company will total it because the car is only worth $5000 and the parts a labor to fix it will be nearly that, so it gets parted out and is gone. To suggest that the remains of 0846 were unsafe or unusable is simply absurd, it wasn't necessary nor economical to rebuild it so they parted it out and threw away what was left.

 

Well said +1