Today's Ferrari Market in Part Driven Down by Self-Fullfilling prophecy Doomsayers

What does driver mean to you, how many miles?

I don't think it's as black and white as you describe it.

Porsche CGT or GT3RS or Ford GT are good examples. Even my lowly import is worth $15K more with 30K more miles than I bought it with 6 years ago so cars like this do exist, in this plane of existence.

 

Most Ferrari's are cars, they will depreciate.

Some are investments. They will go up and down in value. As an investment I would say it's high risk buying a car for $500K.

It's great there are Investors, Collectors and Drivers.

If someone told you buying a Ferrari as an investment is a sure thing, they were most likely the one selling you the car.

 

The higher bond prices go the higher prices for stuff that rich people buy go.

It's as simple as that. Wealth is being transferred to the top 0.01% who do nothing but sit on portfolios of stocks and bonds and watch them swell in value thanks to government policy.

 

Ferrari is not an investment because an investment implies adding new capital to labor to produce new surplus value.

The 'money' that is bidding on old Ferrari's is coming from the capital gains that are being unjustly accrued by those holding onto bond and stock portfolios due to government policy of inflating assets while simultaneously reducing wages. Capitalism = state sponsored USURY. The 'free market' ideologues have created a market where rent seekers(finance, real estate, insurance) are adding massive costs to both labor and capital(entrepreneurs), so now we have a situation where no matter the industry, a few corporations dominate it. America has turned into a version of the USSR. No matter what state you are in, it's the same stores, same brands, same look.

You are seeing reactions to the oligarchs all over the world and brexit was an example of it.

The value of exotics is directly tied to bonds swelling up in value just look at any chart to see the correlation.

 

What? Nobody wants to mention the irony of discussion topics started by someone who threatens to sue over discussion topics not in his favor and managed to get entire threads deleted? I'll pass.

 

Sue? No kidding?

Do tell, do tell.

 

When I say drive it, I mean you drive as much as you want with out consideration of what the miles will do to the value.

I didn't say some cars don't appreciate. You state your car appreciated $15K, with 30K miles more. What would it be worth if you didn't add the 30K miles?

Again I did not say its better to buy a Ferrari to Drive, or a Ferrari to invest. But if I buy as an investment, I better understand the market, I better understand the car, and I should protect my investment to improve its value. That means, don't put any miles on it, or very few, do all the services, and keep the paperwork clean. etc.

Just because a car can appreciate does not mean it will and definitely does not guarantee it will appreciated.

Ferrari Drivers, Investors and Collectors. All great.

 

Ok. You win.

Here is the first definition form internet...

Investment

To invest is to allocate money (or sometimes another resource, such as time) in the expectation of some benefit in the future. In finance, the expected future benefit from investment is a return. The return may consist of capital gain and/or investment income, including dividends, interest, rental income etc.

 

Thanks for the clarification and that is what driver means to me too. There are too few drivers.

 

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Bring on the cats and put this thread out of its misery
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It should be on Velocity where everybody will ignore it.

 

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Good grief, can you say denial?? There's an old saying that "there is a price to pay for everything you gain." Cry us a river. Nobody is forcing anyone to speculate via Ferrari. That's a choice that one makes up in their own head. Speculating involves risk, that risk being that the market can at some point go the other way. Don't get mad just because it isn't a "seller's market" (ponzi scheme) anymore. It was a long time coming, and these "market letters, and notable people preaching" (which is reactionary BTW) do very little/nothing to sway the market. Find another excuse that's better than this one at least. Nothing can be preached to keep a downturn from happening just as nothing can be preached to make an upswing happen. Money and transactions talk, words are meaningless.

LOL
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Right. Except you aren't 'allocating' money into a Ferrari because you are handing it to whoever sold you the Ferrari. What you are doing is waiting on a bagholder(greater fool) to come along in the future to give you even more because reasons(heritage, scarcity, blah blah).

The word investment has been completely skewed at this point where people have no idea what it even means anymore.

There is no value being added by holding onto a Ferrari and waiting for a greater fool to come along with more money.

I explained earlier, the speculative value of a Ferrari is directly related to how much unjust gains wealthy people accumulate due to government monetary policy. Keeping rich people propped up is the largest form of welfare that has ever existed in history. Sending someone $200 of foodstamps is labeled as 'socialism' but bailing out creditors to the tune of trillions is accepted because of 'systematic risk'.

QE all over the world has created enormous capital gains for bondholders(wealthiest 5% of population) and stockholders. The lower interest rates go the higher prices for previously issued bonds go. This is exactly why nobody protests central bank actions, because they are making existing bondholders even wealthier. It's a great game if you are on the right side of the trade(you literally do nothing as money piles up), however if you are a debtor having to make payments than your life becomes a grind(99% of population). The reactions to this explain the Trump, Brexit and enormous disconnect in realities between the haves and have nots.

If you look at inflation rates of luxury goods they are multiples higher than any other good for precisely this reason. It has nothing to do with how great an 'investment' a Ferrari is. People watching their bonds swell up in value(faster than the growth rate of the economy) simply do not care anymore what the 'price' of something is because they are receiving unearned income. That is income literally transferred to them for free. So why not go pay $50 million for a 60's era Fcar?

 

Bought my 330 GT SII in 1983. Have only maintained and driven it. It has patina, and a lot of folks like it that way. It is worth a lot more than it was in '83, even accounting for inflation and expenses. I would claim it was a good investment AND a driver, except I am not going to sell it - so I suppose that rules it out as an investment.

Cheers
Warren

 

I bought my 330gt 2+2 in 2009/10. Have driven it across Europe on holidays a few times and use it whenever I get chance. Don't see it as an investments in the financial sense of the word, instead I see it as an investment in my future enjoyment of life. It is lovely thing to own and drive and share with my family. I consider myself a custodian of it and have put work effort and more money into it to lift the quality of the car and make it more reliable. It's probably worth more than I paid for it but since I don't intend to sell it but instead pass it on to my son (assuming he appreciates it) so that he can get to experience the enjoyment of ownership and use. The 330gt isn't in the same league as some of the ultra rare desirable cars and yet probably costs the same in "carry costs and maintenance" as cars worth more than 5-10x more and so owners are probably less likely to be investors.

Someone who posts on here regularly has a quote they use that I think sums up ownership. Something like Not driving your Ferrari is like not making love to your wife /girlfriend all it does is keep it unworn so that the next person can get more use out of it.

 

Jim Glickenhaus.

 

Frankly, I doubt anyone who owns a Ferrari or has the means and desire to buy one cares about what anybody says here or any other place. After all, isn't the Internet the place where everybody is an instant expert in everything?

 

43% of internet posters are experts.

 

Good un.

 

It's not an investment, it's an appreciating asset that brings you pleasure.

Those are the real "smart cars" to own.

Condition trumps mileage.

 

Or if people don't like it... people dont have to click on the thread.

Problem solved.

Your welcome

 

A few thoughts...

First, I think there is a clear separation in the Ferrari "market" - the Enzo-era cars that have become more art and true collectibles, where curation and value optimization is probably an equal to actually enjoying the fact you own a particular car. "Managing the value" is key. Of course, there are always people who drive the hell out of the their cars, much like those who choose to wear their Patek watch in the mud or use a Stradivarius to play bluegrass fiddle. It's theirs, enjoy as you choose.

The other part of the market is the rest of us - buying nice cars, but these cars are, at this point, unlikely to ever be anything like the Enzo-era. Just too many of them out there, there are probably more 360's around than (real) original Camaro Z28's (I stand to be corrected, but I think you get my point). Some may depreciate less (note, I did not say appreciate), depending on illogical market "trends" (eg. naturally aspirated, 6 speed, whatever). By definition, 99% of cars sold today including Ferraris are perpetually depreciating items to be used and consumed; cared for and conserved absolutely.

A lot of the "market pressure" here is people who want their 458 speciale to enjoy the same dynamic of a 330GTC (though, I guess the Dino's taught us something), or people who want an FF who talk the market down, or speculators who offer a rough 355 6 speed for big money as a "collectible". As Bob says, "Meh".

At the very top of the market, there is an industry that makes its money when the market is up, or can make money when the market is down....so "influencing" (manipulating?) the market is a reality. Like high-end real estate, marketing is different but key. I remember in 1988 the number of people who were shill advertising, particularly Daytonas, posting ads in Autoweek for a 365GTB/4 and marking it "sold at $XXX,000". Modern internet chat rooms typically finds and kills fraudsters today, but this has been going on for a long time.