The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

That may be the way he says it for the benefit of the peanut gallery but it is most assuredly not how he acts.

 

While I agree things should stay civil. I don't think his comment was all that bad. He is probably just frustrated. Imagine putting tons and tons of hours in. Speaking to people and then having people who haven't done any research pop up and say... well what about this... when it has been covered several times.

While it would be nice if he hadn't. He wasn't that rude about it either.

Concerning your last sentance... "unless Piper says where they were made..."

According to Muirasv.... he spoke with piper and piper told him it was a replica. So... if this is true... doesn't this shed a serious amount of light on the situation? The guy who built it is saying its a replica.

 

David has said "where" it was made. In Modena. It's "who" that he can't remember. Please get your facts straight. So by your reasoning if someone went and got a P4 replica chassis made 42 years ago then now say they can't remember who made it, it means it is or it could be the long lost famous P4 Daytona winner even though its identifying features are proven to be totally different. Please excuse me I'm just going to bang my head against a wall. Again!!!

 

Yes, people lie, people forget, people have reasons for not disclosing the truth. The research into DP0003/0846 seems to be hampered by the fact that opponents to the car being built on the former chassis of 0846 are assuming that David Piper's recollections are gospel, that he would have no reason for not telling the truth, nor would he every possibly not tell the truth (while at the same time, casting many aspersions at Mr. Glickenhaus' integrity in this regard). I am less inclined to grant DP sainthood status in these discussions nor absolve him from any possible chance that he might not be telling the truth. I found the vicious way DP went after journalist/driver Mark Hale in the 917 blown engine incident a few years ago to be despicable, and indicative of a character that was less than fully honest and truthful, so I don't give DP that same blanket assumption of innocence of purpose.

There are several possible reasons for DP to not want to disclose the story behind the 3 chassis, including the aspect that Enzo Ferrari authorized DP to build ONE replica, 0900, not three - yet nonetheless DP had three constructed (the authorization for ONE replica is only related by DP himself, nobody has shown anything in writing from Enzo authorizing the replica builds). DP also claims that Enzo told him to use 0900 serial number for his ONE replica, yet Ferrari used 0900 on another genuine race car. No supporting documentation for the approval to use #0900 has been shown. Even the possibility that DP0003 was supposed a newly built replica chassis contructed at the same time as 0900 and "0900a", yet inspection showed that older chassis pieces and repaired chassis pieces are present on DP0003 that shouldn't be present on a more recently built replica might be a reason for DP to not remember who/how the 3 replica chassis were built. Maybe Piper forgot the origins of the 3rd chassis or was unaware of a possible link to 0846, sold it to JG, then was embarrassed at letting a genuine chassis slip through his hands, so won't talk about it? There's also some concern about customs owed for transport of car parts between the European countries in the 70s that has implications on how much DP might be willing to relate about these cars.

This thread contains the information from Marcel Massini, in posts from over 10 years ago! Massini posted that he saw a P3 or P4 chassis in Switzerland at Franco Sbarro's warehouse, and there was a customs carnet accompanying the chassis filled out by Cervan Corporation that documented the number 0846 chassis being imported to Switzerland.

From 2005, post #3031

The reply from Marcel Massini, post #3034:

It was suggested that CERVAN Corporation was owned by or affiliated with DP, and a serial number 0846 on the document accompanied a P3 or P4 chassis being imported to Switzerland in 1977. Was Cervan associated with DP? What was that chassis, where did it end up? Many, many questions to be answered by DP - and he has declined. Rather than pester DP as he did MF, Steve and other DP fans give him a blanket pass on these critical questions.

There's more than enough doubt raised about the source of the chassis passed off as DP0003 that efforts should focus there, rather than on which engine mount frame tubes match 39 year old photos when we know that the engine mounting was hacked up by DP while he owned the chassis.

 

What a nice piece of DP character assassination and totally uncalled for. DP took Mark Hales to court because MH blew his car, made a false insurance claim, changed his story, never said sorry and wouldn't even talk about coming to a deal.

The judge found in favour of DP and was pretty scathing about the reliability of MH as a witness. MH made his own mess without any help from DP. DP told me that in all his years of racing and trading in cars it was the only time he had ever been to court.

Please retract your comments as you obviously have no idea of the full story.

 

The duty to ask Piper for more information has just those who claim that he knows more that he confirmed in writing for the sale. And indeed, the car’s builder is David Piper (and not Ferrari). But since the period pictures of KL rather show that the car is the replica as sold and bought, there is not too much space left for alternative theories until there are new - and relevant – information available. May be we will learn more from Ferrari. But however, how could they - eventually - certify a car if they did not build it?

 

Gordon, there has been no evidence of older or repaired chassis pieces given by Mr Glickenhaus other than a picture of a sightly damaged tube that he claimed was a Wayne Sparling weld at the TF 67 which was subsequently disproven. Don't forget that this was a 26 year old chassis that had been raced all over the world by the time Mr Glickenhaus got it. It would undoubtedly have picked up some battle scars and also tubes may have been replaced due to corrosion. Some of the tubes even carry water for the cooling system so definitely a corrosion factor there.

How many times do I have to say that David has told me that he didn't want to talk about it any more? I have spared him nothing and given him no blanket pass but I can't make him answer questions he can't or doesn't want to.

 

Why would DP get himself involved in this potential multi $$MM mess AGAIN? To satisfy a couple of armchair historians on the interwebs? He has told the story....the car is a replica built by him with a replica chassis. Its a classic example that the guys who desperately want this car to be something else hope they will get a different answer if only you ask the same questions again and again. Won't happen.

The bubble has burst. Kudos to miura for posting some great photos and comparisons that make these 430 pages worthwhile after all.

And the "the car is 0846 until proven otherwise" camp cracks me up. Jeez, burden of proof and all....

 

Thank you for the posts. I am sure that was not easy or fun to dig up. I appreciate it.

So am I looking into the fact that Marcel only stated that he saw a P3 or P4 chassis and that Jims post said 0846. Marcel did not confirm in his post that it was for sure 0846. If he did at a later point I stand corrected of course.

If the chassis number was not confirmed by Marcel than this is alot of heresay to try to get us to help support a theory/conclusion. Even if there was paperwork that said 0846 but no physcial confirmation then it isn't really concrete evidence. People fiddle with import paperwork all of the time especially back then. It may have made it easier to get something in as an old used chassis. There could have been a higher tax on new items or maybe there was an existing document on 0846 and it was easier to ride those coattails. Now I know it sounds crazy... but its no crazier than what has been suggested. If you can entertain that it was used as 003 you have to be able to accept this possiblity as well. And if you were going to use a ferrari chassis number... what better number than one they are no longer using and couldn't possibly be two places at one. Again, its a alternative theory. Not saying that is 100% what I believe.

Concerning taking David Pipers recollection as gospel. You don't have to. He sold it in period as a replica to Jim. Jim bought it as a replica. You are not relying on recollection. It was all in period and agreed on by both parties.

DPs story in this matter has not changed (to my knowledge)

Again, I am not trying to be combative. I am trying to ask questions to help me make my determination...

How much of do you think of 0846 is left in the jims car? If the back half is blustered up due to engine mounts. we can write off the entire back section for that reason... it is not as it was in period as far as mounting or anything.

I am not trying to lead you with this statement... genuinely asking for clarification. So do we think from the pedal box forward is 0846? If so is that enough to constitute the car as 0846 in your mind?

And we are assuming that because of a weld, and a sighting of a P3 or P4 chassis (unknown chassis number) and some paperwork in 1977. All ending of course with the chassis being sold as a replica by Piper when he could have financially gained by it being 0846. I know this last section sounds rude but thats not how I intend it to come across. I am more of trying to put together the rest of the story/theory quickly as a synopsis.

 

I am in no way referring to you. I am stating how this is a contest event versus an enthusiast event. Here to win versus work together to learn.

Miura has put together some good theories and an impressive find with the pictures. The problem with his research leading to a irrefutable truth is his bias that only leads him down the path he cares to stroll upon.

We shall see what comes of the rumored inspection of the chassis.

My guess is that if Ferrari says it's the real deal.. people will then have to dig into Piper to refute it.

Lets say this is "irrefutable fact" that it is indeed 0003. Would it not, as a group of enthusiasts, be very interesting to know the story of the man driven to build three P4's of his own, and how he went about doing that and used them, and modified them? Just to know about the man who built three of his own versions of one of the greatest race cars of all time? What enthusiast doesn't want to dig into that history?

But yet. No one attempts it or even knows anything about their hero's story with the car they argue over.

Personally, i think it is a worthwhile part of this car's story to unearth, for educational purpose etc.

What's not to like?

No idea on why Piper won't talk about something that is an interesting part of his legacy?

Yes, Marcel and the sighting is another clue to be fleshed out. Clues lead to things. The dates of when it all went down would lead to if the frame could have been with Piper when all the three frame things went down. If you are proving something no longer exists, then I feel it is important to know if it existed the day Massini saw a chassis being shipped. Most likely to Piper.

IMO that is one of the qusetions that needs answering before I would jump on the it is 0003 ship.

 

Ferrari can only truly comment to any extent and they could then state x is original or whatever. But there are no theories if we know where the chassis came from. Which we still do not.

I respect Steve for his hard work to show us the pictures and stuff but we still do not know where the chassis was built, only Steve's reporting of a conversation that Pipes stated he had the chassis built but doesn't state by whom. IMO it only counts if we know by whom, Bacheli, M and M or Allegretti or whoever........ And two people implied on here that #0846 could be built into DP0002, so would simply need to see the invoices for #0900 and the two DPs and BOOM game over. Drop mike. Thanks for all the fish Jim.

 

Thank you for clarifying and its also nice to know what you feel is the "smoking gun"

I also agree that it would be interesting to know about the other cars.

I know nothing of Piper and his behavior/demenor. I just think its odd that they he won't disclose anyting about the car other than its a replica.... Then on sunday... I turn on a steve mcqueen documentry and... low and behold david piper.... so... he isn't in hiding... he does come out of the shed... just not to discuss 0846??? other than saying its a replica. Strange. Unless that is all there is to say. I do find it odd he doesn't discuss who made the chassis. Wouldn't there only be a handful of people who would have made it? Couldn't someone get ahold of them?

If all piper is going to say is its a replica and he didn't build the chassis... then lets find the guys who built the chassis. (All of this if you are not going to take Piper at his word)

 

No, no retraction will be forthcoming, I don't implicitly trust wheeler dealer used car salesmen of any stripe, whether named David Piper, Bernie Ecclestone, or whoever.

Your one paragraph summary of the full story is extremely lacking - you've ignored that there were offers to settle at various stages, primary legal dealings where Octane magazine dealt with Piper and Hale was not engaged, the fact that Piper claimed excessive damages for loss of use rather than just actual rebuild costs for the engine, and that Piper specifically refused multiple offers to settle, stating instead that he would rather pursue Hale in bankruptcy court than accept a settlement. I think everyone agrees that Hale and Octane did not handle their responsibilities appropriately, but at the same time many if not most observers felt that Piper's reputation suffered greatly from the way he went after Hale.

It's worth commenting on your allegation above that Hale "made a false insurance claim" - Judge Simon Brown QC specifically rejected that allegation, recording "No evidence was adduced to support the serious allegation that Octane were party to an insurance fraud and no one was called to answer such allegation" - looks like you're not averse to some exaggeration yourself. Are you planning to retract that comment? Oh, you mean we're not in court?

 

Here's another interesting quote from 2004 in a different 0846 thread - in post #57 of http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ferrari-discussion-not-model-specific-sponsored-algar-ferrari/7514-poor-mans-p4-replica-project.html, JG quote Marcel Massini thusly - not just any P3 or P4 frame, but a frame with 0846 markings to go along with the paperwork. So 39 years ago, David Piper himself was with Marcel Massini at Sbarro in Switzerland, and Piper showed MM a P car with 0846 stamping, and a customs import carnet listing sn #0846. Piper doesn't recall this. Who should we believe, Massini or Piper? Anybody still think that David Piper doesn't hold any answers to what happened to that P car stamped 0846 as noted by Marcel Massini?

Here's a link to post #4590 in this thread from Feb 18, 2010 where Marcel Massini posted a photo saying "Here's 0846 in May 2005..." - that would be after this car was acquired by JG. Does that mean MM considers JG's car to be 0846 rather than a DP replica?

This post #2993, Aug 31 2005, from Marcel Massini is very interesting - he says that it was Piper himself who showed him the carnet with #0846 in Switzerland in 1977:

And on May 12, 2005, Marcel Massini posted in this thread http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/56217-my-latest.html

 

A few questions come to mind...

What happened to the stampings on the chassis? Jim found none...so, it must have been a different chassis...? IOW, if it was clearly stamped 0846 when Marcel saw it, what happened to those clear stampings that don't exist on the chassis in question?

Next...why won't Marcel chime in with his observations? I could speculate on this, but I won't...there's too much speculation already. I will say that Mr. Massini has not been shy in the past when information contradicts his observation. The fact that he is unwilling to provide clarity can only suggest (to me, at least) that there is no clarity.

The dots don't line up. Marcel saw a chassis stamped 0846 traveling on a carnet. The current chassis is not stamped 0846. Therefore, how can an expert conclude that it is the same chassis...? How can anybody who wasn't there imply it's the same chassis when the stampings mysteriously disappeared...?

The are too many inconvenient holes in the argument that require "what ifs" and "maybes."

 

There is a 0846 stamp on the car now but it's a fake one made by Mr Glickenhaus. May I ask if the gearbox stamp 593A N7 was made at the same time as the 0846 stamp? Pictures from California 2004.
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Oh boy...history has shown that history tends to make this sort of "artifact" a fact. If shown enough times in enough forums, that chassis stamp will become a fact that substantiates the claim.

Clearly proceding with an agenda...not searching for facts and "letting the metal speak" for itself. Somehow, someone thinks that clarity (of an agenda?) is needed. Does he mention in the .pdf that he added a chassis stamp?

 

Not sure from memory if mentioned in the 0846 pdf but to his credit I think Mr Glickenhaus has said he applied the 0846 stamp himself in this thread.

 

If someone asked me to write a telenovela, I would choose 0846 as the main character.

This thread has become very interesting lately. Keep the info coming. Not even Game of Thrones is this exciting

 

Not really. He has kept a tight lip. If he built it he would have some knowledge of how it was built. Most People think Pipes is keeping quiet for a reason. I can say My Iphone is a microwave, doesn't make it true.

As far as the Massini incident being the smoking gun. I don't think that. It is just one of the pieces that needs to be vetted to clear up the picture.

 

Oh the irony!

 

If there's any substance in the Massini 0846 carnet incident, then that makes all the Meade/Modena stuff a load of rubbish. Can't both be correct.
Nathan

 

Exactly Nathan!

Lets see now..... post 1977 someone thinks, I know lets grind these very valuable numbers off this chassis (and do such a superb job not even a file mark is left on the bare metal) and use it to build a replica.....hmmm good call.

Plus the daft notion of David Piper doing any sort of nudge nudge, wink wink when selling 003 in relation to it being 0846. Yeh right he is going to sell a replica, for replica money when he thinks it could be a virtually priceless original P car.

It would have no doubt been Jims opening line in his PDF as well if that was the case.

Thats like Shaughnessy selling off his barn find ultra rare ferrari chassis as the kit car it was sold to him as on ebay!!!!

 

Ferrari commenting on a replica after they confirmed that 0846 is no more and stating X is 'original'? Very interesting theory! Let's see and wait but of course I remain a firm believer in Italian miracles and other wonders! However, Piper stated in writing all the relevant information and KL's period pictures proved them right. Still space for any theories? If yes, just the claimant himself and nobody else is responsible to prove them.

 

Exactly Paul500!
David was selling a P4 replica, as JG admits on p.13 of his PDF – “That evening Alberto told me that much of it looked original and as long as I realized what I was buying for a price it would made a fine car to drive on Sundays as I like to." In fact JG continues “I made an offer. David accepted and I became the owner of the Red Car”
JG's own words, with no mention of nudge, nudge, wink, wink there then.
Nathan