The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

i think this little Monty Python sketch sums up this thread quite well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

 

Maybe you, Vincent, might like to answer the questions you yourself ask. You are a know all who knows nothing.

 

If I knew the answers to those questions, I wouldn't be asking the questions.

That is basic logic.

Also if I knew it all, I wouldn't being asking those questions.

Basic logic again.

I am also not the one shouting from the rooftops that it is or is not 0846. I am not shouting from the rooftops that it is or is not 0003. Frankly I don't know nor am I convinced either way.

If you are acting like a know it all that claims this is "irrefutably" 0003 then you better have answers to any and all questions that question your supposed research. If you can't answer those questions than you have not irrefutably proven that it is or is not 0003.

Once again, basic logic.

A picture from 1967 is not a constant. It is a variable. Ferrari allegedly changed the whole section of the chassis from P3 to P4 in a short time between 66-67. Basic logic also dictates that if they could do that, that it is also the possibility that the chassis has been changed since the photo if this is indeed 0846. It is pretty clear that the chassis has been modified since its original construction, whether that original construction was as 0846 or 0003. To use a picture from 1967 as irrefutable proof that this is not the chassis in the picture, one would have to know what changes took place while the chassis was in Pipers hands. Other then that, it is just a picture that does not represent what may have taken place since the picture was taken.

The chassis 0003 is claimed to be built from scratch as a P4. If this is true, the area in front of the Bulkhead should be 100% P4. Is it?

The fact that you are trolling me is also basic logic.

 

I lost interest half way through reading this. Normal crap from you, whoever you are, which you don't seem to want to tell us.

 

Love it.

Have a good one.

 

I agree the above from Francis is sound advice, and I had already thought I should wait until Mr Glickenhaus posts the Ferrari documents relating to his car before posting here again. However, on reading Mr Glickenhaus's post above, and judging from previous experience of his past "Ferrari evidence" it's my guess he's not going to publish any documents from an authority within Ferrari on the "P" cars or even from Classiche.

He says Ferrari "investigated" P4 0846. I suspect my interpretation of that word is a lot different to his. He hasn't said Ferrari have physically inspected the car at the Factory and what tests they performed. As the Ferrari statements and documents already exist I don't see why he doesn't publish them now. Don't forget also that he describes the documents as "dispositive" which means providing a final resolution so why wait?

He says there is additional information that is in the works and isn't finished yet but I doubt very much this is information from Ferrari and more likely stories from Italy during the car's visit there that will go in the 0846 pdf. Will we be subjected to more rubbish like the Josh Lange/Tom Meade death bed story?

"Several months" implies to me we could be in for a very long wait.

 

I think the best course of action is to be patient and see what comes of it.

In all fairness, the detractors have done nothing but criticize him of how un-thorough his .PDF is. If your wish is for thorough, then the best course of action IMO is to be a gentleman and give him the time he needs to dot his I's and cross his T's. No one pushed you for a time frame, so what right do you have to push him? At that time he publishes, you will surely have a retort, and I believe you will want the same respect to take the time you need to put that together. And then the back and forth will start.

I take it you have no real knowledge of the car under Piper? Do you have any information that would help lead to the answering of the questions I asked above recently?

You may be right.

You may be wrong.

 

Indeed, but meanwhile you might like to tell us whether you are some spotty teenage internet troll or someone who actually has some Ferrari pedigree.

Come on Vincent. You have put yourself around enough on here. About time you told us a bit about yourself before we take much more notice of you.

 

I figured I post this funny little thing cause I thought it was, well... Funny....

But then you still want to keep things going in the meantime?

You may want to follow your own advice....

I grew up in the world of collectable Ferraris. I most likely went to my first FCA event before you were born.

Seeing that my posts are filled with drivel in your eyes, and you can only get half way through them....

I suggest that you ignore my posts and move on. I feel that will suit you much better.

Have a good one mon frere.

 

So you say, and ha, if what you claim is true you must be very ancient then as I am 66 (as you can see on my profile if you take the trouble to look!)

Still doesn't excuse pontificating while giving no clue to your background.

No background to me = no credibility.

 

You are older than me.

I could give two $h*ts if you feel I have credibility or not. Frankly, your opinion does not matter to me.

You are just some other bent English guy that is butt hurt over Piper. Who cares? I sure don't.

Move on captain. In your own words. There is nothing to see here.

 

Mea culpa on that one. But felt it needed saying.

No rising to you any more mon frere, although I'm not sure you are!

 

Don't insult me, I am Scottish!

 

Fair enough.

 

Let us not forget what Ing. Forghieri had the say about the "very clever modification" on the Glickenhaus chassis: "Never the factory could accept the schowed solutions to bolt the chassis to the engine. At the factory was easier to modify in correct way the triangled-tube necessary to have a perfect engine mount."

 

Geez Steve, talk about "guilty until proved innocent" - so you're saying that your base assumption going in is that Mr. Glickenhaus is solely trying to deceive with these latest documents and that you will assume they are going to be incomplete, deceptive, inaccurate, etc. Well, nice work in being impartial and judging based on the evidence - you've already dismissed the evidence and convicted JG and Ferrari without ever reading a word. You did claim to be impartial and just wanting to know the truth, didn't you?

Speaking of which - the person making the strongest arguments against DP0003 being 0846 is Steve. Just what is Steve's Ferrari pedigree? Is he some sort of acknowledged expert in the Ferrari world, specializing in 1960s sports racers perhaps? How much notice should we actually take of Steve, if you have high standards?

Again, what is Steve's Ferrari expertise background? What credibility does Steve have in the Ferrari world beyond this internet forum thread?

Whether Ferrari or Piper built that chassis, as a factory P3 modified to P4, or as a replica P4 - we know that it was Piper that hacked up the engine mounts and came up with that pathetic solution. Forghieri's criticism has nothing to do with identifying whether the car is 0846 or DP0003 - all it does is highlight the substandard engineering work performed by Piper on that chassis.

 

No it isn't! (No it doesn't).

 

As I follow this train wreck I continue to wonder one thing:

How is it possible JG purchased this car as a "replica", which he himself has acknowledged in the past; only to claim now that it's 0846? And, claiming it's the real deal without the original engine, original gearbox, or chassis?!

 

Bought car as replica. Upon rebuilding found what he felt was evidence in the chassis that linked it to 0846.

Claim is not that all parts are original to car. Although the parts are mostly original Ferrari P4 parts he is not claiming the parts in the car now are the parts that were used to assemble it when last raced by Ferrari in 67.

Claim is that 0846 chassis survived and the remains of that were used to build Piper 0003.

 

You are very wrong. Forghieri's criticism has a great deal to do with identifying whether the car is 0846 or DP0003. In your above statement you've absolutely proven that you know nothing about the basics of Mr Glickenhaus's case in proving that his chassis is 0846. These engine mounts are the primary details of the chassis that Mr Glickenhaus claims identify it as 0846 by him claiming they are the work of Ferrari and these mountings were the solution they used to convert the chassis to accept a P4 engine. You have shown above that you are in agreement with me, the person you are arguing with, that these engine mountings do not identify the chassis as 0846.

 

OK. I appreciate your response. This prompts an additional question:

Marcel Mancini saw paperwork for 0846 on a chassis being exported in 1977. David Piper was associated with that transaction. So how is it possible 0846's chassis was sold in 1977, then Piper used chassis parts from the 0846 chassis in a replica chassis he had created years later?

 

One additional question:

Let's say the chassis for 0846 was scrapped, but portions of the chassis were cut off and used for assembly of a few different chassis. Perhaps the bulkhead is in one, the center section in another, and the rear section in a third. And, let's imagine all three chassis have period parts (sans engine and gearbox) but not from the actual 0846 car. Which one, if any, is actually 0846?

 

This was discussed a few pages ago.

This is all speculation but one of the theories is that the chassis was indeed 0846. The belief would be that this chassis 0846, which was once a P3 in 1966 and then converted by Ferrari to become the first car/test mule for the 1967 P4 series. The chassis 0846 would then go on to race with the other P4's and would end up winning first place at Daytona in the historic 1st ,2nd ,3rd place finish of all Ferrari P4's.

It is a theory that when Piper produced his run of P4 replicas that one of the chassis was just the remains of 0846 and was thus labeled Piper 0003.

Some will say it is definitively a scratch built Piper replica.

Others will say it is definitively the remains of 0846.

IMO, no definitive proof has been presented where it is factually known to be one or the other.

1967 24 Hours of Daytona - Race Profile, History, Photos

 

That question is not an easy one to answer and is sure to fire up a debate if evidence of that ever surfaced.

 

So under the scenarios you've mentioned, I'd like to ask the following two questions:

Let's say the chassis Marcel Mancini saw in 1977 was indeed 0846 - that the paperwork matched the chassis itself. If that were the case, how would it be possible David Piper would get that chassis back in the following years and opt to sell it as a replica when he knew it was actually the original chassis for 0846?

As to the second theory; the first assumption would have to be the chassis seen in 1977 wasn't actually 0846. But, if that were the case then Piper would have had to have the remains of 0846 all along and incorporated them into 0003. Why would he then sell it as a replica knowing it had 0846 as a significant portion of or the complete chassis?

While I can appreciate we're talking about an ex-race car chassis that probably wasn't worth all that much when it was cast aside by Ferrari in the late 60's, or even when it was reportedly exported in the late 70's... by the time it was sold to JG as a "replica" in 2000 it would have been a very valuable chassis.