Geneva 2017 for F12M

That would still be naturally aspirated...

Just with an electric assist for who knows exactly what, like the LaFerrari. No forced induction, means naturally aspirated still.

 

Not to discount Justin, but Im pretty sure I would take Peters word over a dealer. Just my .02 though.

 

MD of my dealer has been to Italy recently and talked about "uber 800PS", which could translate to 800hp/810PS like the 730hp/740PS of the Berlinetta.

An electrically assisted V12 non-LE car would certainly be positioned as a totally new car, probably above F12 and therefore would also be way ahead in terms of power, i.e. like 850hp. But then, 850 is still "above 800".

 

To add to the confusion: The other Justin (me) has spoken his uk dealer who has been to Maranello recently and been told 800 BHP with no mention of electrics. Also 4WS and interior upgrade a la GTC4Lusso.

 

FWIW, the info I have says NA 800 HP, 4WS, but no electric assist beyond the HELE system.

Looking at this logically, the LF battery+ electric motors adds quite a bit of weight to the car. Even if they made progress in reducing the weight, the penalty would likely be around 400lbs. Thats just too much for the F12 platform. I think if they did it, it would be a new platform. On that basis, I think the more likely candidate would be the replacement to the F12 platform, and not the "M" or refresh.

 

I have not heard this. What I have heard is a larger displacement V12, confirmed by PM, with around 800HP. There would be little point creating larger displacement if you had electric assist. Furthermore, I don't believe Ferrari have the technology sorted for a production car yet, so overall, I am inclined not to believe it, in fact positively so when Caeruleus s comments about weight are added in.

 

I have ordered the "M" and heard the same story about a LaFerrari type electric motor from my dealer.
Ferrari revealed this in a briefing to UK dealers some months ago.
My dealer is pretty sensible and told me that rather than a detailed presentation of the concept which is what he would have expected it was no more than a throwaway comment which he had to check with his colleague he had heard correctly.

 

I see that as a downgrade.

 

+1....fear of that caused me to hedge my spot on the M list by ordering a late build F12. Call me a stick in the mud, but the idea of an screen in the center of the dash of an F12 replacement or a 488 just doesn't feel right. Fingers crossed.

 

You can't possibly go wrong with the "M" or whatever it will be named

 

I didn't say it would have a screen in the middle....

 

Hoping you're right!

 

I don't understand what is the problem with the screen in the middle?

I think one of the problems with the current layout is there is nothing for the passenger to do or look at. The older passenger display, I think, is not a positive. It just confirms for the screaming wife how fast you are going. A screen in the middle, or the improved passenger display from the GTC4 will allow the passenger to at least work the nav system or see the radio display.

If my dealer offered me a spot for the "M" instead of the F12b, I would have probably taken it. Possibly the last production unassisted NA V12 from Ferrari, and even if not, 800HP, 4WS, improved everything... what's not to love!

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not passing on the M...just covering my backside! Agree completely on the current passenger display. Regarding the screen, my convoluted thinking makes it ok in a Cali since it started in 2009 (when screens were a recent-ish thing) and is more an everyday car...kind of a premium SL. But adding it a decade late into the legacy cars seems a bit weak and mass and lemming-like to me. Hoping for something more elegant and evergreen....more Ferrari. Just one guy's wishes.

 

Well, since you asked.

There’s nothing wrong with a display in the center of the dash if your goal is to be like nearly every single car made for the road today. Display technology changes drastically every few years and instantly dates the vehicle and not in a quant old fashioned kind of way. More like a cheap digital media kind of way – does your computer have a 5 ½ inch floppy disk? The charge of the passenger in an F12 is to enjoy the event that is taking place around you. If you want to play with electronics then bring your omnipresent-cell phone-4G-can’t be without-device and ignore the fact you are in one of man’s finest automotive achievements. Or better yet, stay home and let someone who appreciates its brilliance have a shot at being the passenger. If using for a daily driver then maybe a Lusso or another brand would be a better fit.

The fear of the F12M’s interior being a Lusso clone has deadened my interest quite a bit. That and its beautiful curves may become very main stream like the Lusso exterior or just like a TDF with smaller flaps and gills and sharper edges. If they are going to change it then just change it all. Would be a good time to release that universal aluminum chassis and stop diluting the original PF design like what’s going on with the front half of the Lusso and the hood/roof on the 488. I really like the 800HP and the bigger displacement engine (well done Ferrari!) which I have been advocating forever despite the doubting masses falling back on arguments of strict environmental regulations and the impossibility of squeezing more HP out of the NA motor (which there is a lot more that can be done). Not so sure that the interior will stay pure driver focused and not dissolve into a pedestrian leather-clad big screen techno booth ala Lexus, MB, Audi, Tesla (help us all), etc. The F12M must stay as analog as possible and as fierce as possible to carry on the front mounted super sports car flagship Ferrari tradition IMHO. I'm OK with others feeling differently.

 

#Solid State: Agree with your points re the screen. For me personally, there is already too much visual information, submenus which coupled to rather illogical buttons make it more of a distraction. From a driving perspective, I just look at the rev counter in my F12 - and sometimes the nav system. Still prefer the simpler layout in my F430 Spider MT. I enjoy the driving experience, the sound, finding the lines etc - not so much the info gadgets...

 

You all make excellent points. Sold State you aren't kidding when you say the F12 is one of man's finest automotive achievements. What a car! I can only imagine what they will do to top this. What a daunting challenge.

I think though if I am an automobile manufacturer, there is no choice at all but to include these screens. Do you think these cars would sell if Ferrari went purist and included no screens of any kind? It would be contrary to the part of their image that stands for high tech. In terms of technology becoming dated in these cars, I have come to accept them as products of their eras. And I also think that while earlier screen tech really does look dated, maybe we are at a point where these screens won't look quite so dated quite so quickly. I'm not a lover of touch screens in cars, but this one looks pretty good and I think the fact that one can use Apple Car Play might give it a bit of future proofing- at least for the next few years...

If we are to talk about styling, I too lament the loss of PF. But, are you aware the Ferrari designed ½ the F12 and PF the other ½? My point is to say with Ferrari often times the lines are a little more blurry than with other marques. I think the FDC has done some nice designs (LF is definitely one, and I think F12tdf is incredible) and some less appealing designs (I don't like how disjointed the Speciale looks- thats just me). But styling is really in the eye of the beholder. I think FDC will do a fine job. I just wonder why would they abandon such a historic partnership. I have no idea but I'm sure there is a good reason.

However, I do share your bias towards the experience of driving and its really about the driver. That's one reason why the 4 seat Ferraris never really did anything for me- FF/ GTC4 included.

In my case, my wife will sometimes accompany me on drives and that sometimes means highway driving. The things that matter will shift from the engine note and enjoyment of driving to the radio, etc. I think my criticism is of the original Passenger Display and instrument binnacle. If they didn't want to have anything there, thats fine by me. But to give so much data and info for the driver but nothing or only the RPM and speed to the passenger... in my mind it just doesn't work out logically. But I am just one of many Ferraristi.

And we already have things like bluetooth, sat radio, sat nav, AC, etc... So I don't think we can make the purist argument with any modern production Ferrari. I think the LE cars get closer.

But lets not kid ourselves that these are small, lightweight, barebones truly analog sportscars- like a Lotus. These are luxury rockets that make ordinary drivers feel like heroes. The integration of systems on these cars is truly remarkable. It is this integration that allows Ferrari to sell an 800HP monster to mere mortals.

I think no one will need to worry about the F12M being fierce. I have no knowledge of the car aside from what is speculated here but I also have absolutely no doubt- it will be fierce. And it will give all the analog sensations we love. This is Ferrari after all. They are not going to mess this up.

Anyway, we don't know if Ferrari will put a big central screen in the F12M. Maybe they won't. Maybe they think the improved passenger display from the GTC4 is a good solution. Or maybe its entirely different. We will find out in a few months. Until then speculation is fun sport!

 

Maybe dash/screen setup something more like the LaF.......leaving the rest of the interior to be more like GTC4 Lusso.....best of both worlds.....

 

That might be the ticket!

 

My main issue with screens in the dash is that they look and function horribly outdated when 10 years old . Prefer a clean more timeless dash, but as with most things it is personal preference

 

I count at least 4 posts (2 from different areas in UK, 1 Canadian and 1 San Francisco) who have been told by an actual dealer they have been briefed about some sort of kers system on the f12m while at the factory or at a national meeting.

It's been at least 3 years since kers was developed for the LF so I don't understand the outright denial that it is a possibility that an improved kers systems may be used in the F12m?

 

Kers adds weight and complexity to an already heavy and some would say overpowered replacement model. There is some resistance to the whole idea of adding more power in this way. One LaFerrari was supposedly being built without the kers system. I wonder how that special build is coming along?

 

The only thing I can think of is a very small battery and motor that could maybe be inserted in line with the transmission. Maybe they can find some places to lose weight so the additional weight of this smaller battery and motor are off set.

For what its worth I'm told by people whom I trust that it will be "NA, 800HP, larger displacement, 4WS"... no mention of KERS. That doesn't mean it can't happen. I just think of2worlds lays out the case against it pretty well.

 

This is thought to be an early test model but the wheels look rather nice compared to the earlier black car though no shields on both cars that are wearing test plates. The driver of the black car might have been Dario Benuzzi? I don't think the new body will make an appearance before next year...
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740hp F12B in the hand is better than 800hp F12M unknown in the bush ?
My build completes on 9/29...code 30 painting before the summer break. hopefully across the pond to me by early November.