360CS Starting issue.... Anybody like puzzles?

I have been chasing a 'hot start' problem in this car for a few years. The car would not restart (only solenoid click) after running the car for 15-20 minutes. Only after cooling down would the car start. The starter was replaced.... no change in symptoms. Starter relay was replaced..... no change. Recently, the alternator failed. After looking at a parts manual, I saw that a wire harness (213155) covers the starter and alternator as well as AC. I reasoned that in my earlier Ferraris (TR, 348) that developed 'hot start' issues, the problem was due to deteriorating wires that due to heat created increase resistance, dropping voltage, hence the problem. While replacing the alternator, I also replaced the harness. There are now different symptoms... Now the car will start and run fine from cold. Whether the car runs for 10 seconds or 5 hours, the car can be turned off and if a restart is attempted it does the following: With the finger continuously on the start button it cranks-stops-cranks-stops-cranks-stops and refuses to start. If it does start, it will be in 'limp mode' or half the engine will be running. The only code that came up as pending was 'crank position sensors'. I replaced them and that made no change. We are currently checking the battery (fine) and all grounds, but I doubt any of this will help. Has anyone seen a similar problem, or point me in the right direction to find a solution? I have spoken with a number of techs and nobody has heard of a 360/CS with a similar issue. Thanks in advance.

 

You have coil on plug ignition, so the only current through the spark plug wires is a signal to the coil on the plug to fire.

Have you checked the battery and alternator ground cables? Whoops, see you are already doing that.

 

This is turning into much more of a puzzle than I really like. I much prefer driving!

We currently have every ground exposed and are cleaning and reconnecting them.

We did a test with a testing light at the power connection of the new harness. When the crank-stop-crank-stop, etc is going on, the test light would just go on and off. To me this means that problem isn't downstream from the cable.... starter.....alternator, it must be upstream. The only thing I can think of that sends the OK are the ECU's. I hate replacing parts and hoping, if you know what I mean.

 

Terrible to have to go thru this but at least you sound like you are using a solid approach. I like the idea of looking at how the power gets to the problem area and/or what is controlling the distribution of the power. Is there any documentation like WSM's or service bulletins you need?

 

Swap the motronic units side to side. You likely have a corrupted CAN signal. Eventually it gets so bad that the car will not start at all unless left for several hours.

 

It would be nice to have a complete schematic of this car's electrical system, but nobody seems to have one (that they will share).

I was hoping that you may chime in. Thank you. When you say "corrupted CAN signal", does that mean the ECU itself is damaged? Or is it the software?

 

I think it's a software problem but have never really dug much deeper. They basically run as a "master and slave" during the immobiliser switching/cranking phase and the problem occurs when the start command is transfered from one motronic to the other.

 

When I swap them, if the problem clears up, will the original driver's side or the passenger side need either replacing or reprogramming?

Thanks again for your help.

 

Dino, if it cures the problem then leave it. It only appears to be the start up CAN comms that is the problem on the "master" unit. Good luck, let us know how you get on!

 

I have the cable schematics for a MY2000 Spider in a stand alone file. You may have already but if not I can send. Not sure if it will help. I also have the 2003 Modena manual but it is not broken out so that one is tougher to share.

 

The only electrical diagram I have is one I found in the parts area on ricambi's site.
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PM'ed you. The spider one is 3.64 Mb's which is too big to post.

 

Thanks Kevin.

 

Have you tried to bypass the starter button...?

 

I'm getting ready to swap ECUs and saw what appears like someone put an extra ground on the ECUs. If you look at the pic, there is a wire with a yellow band on it, attached to the frame via a bolt with red paint on it. It attached to a bolt on the ECU. Both sides have them. They look aftermarket to me. Does anyone know for sure if it's an add on and why would someone add that?
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So you dont see it on the wiring diagram? There is one page that shows all the grounds IIRC. If you narrow down the area to a specific cable and post up the page it shows up on I can X reference it to the '03 Modena Manual. Maybe it's something specific to a CS though.

 

It just doesn't look like its factory to me, but I could be wrong!


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No that's not a factory earth. The top earth bolt carries only one cable normally. The top bolt where the aftermarket earth is carries the earth for the left hand rear wiring harness that stays in the car when the engine is removed. It handles the left hand lights, left hand suspension, left hand cat ecu, fuel door release, lh fuel pump etc. it also connects to the ecu. It then goes down under the car and in to the left hand lower ecu cover area where it plugs in to the interior harness.

The lower bolt is separate because that one carries the earth for the engine loom that stays on the engine when it comes out, and connects the engine itself to the ecu.

If you can tell me where and what the new earth connects to I might be able tell you what it is trying to achieve.

 

Ah - sorry - you already said - attached to a bolt on the ecu...

Someone obviously just wanted to make sure the ecu chassis was eart bonded. Probably to avoid the ecu bodies getting corroded electrolytically... They do end up a mess... It's a great idea!
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We are checking the plethora of grounds on the car. While doing this, we took the ECU's out.

It looks like the right hand side (passenger) has not been out prior to this. The left hand ECU looks like someone may have been troubleshooting something at some point. Someone wrote "cold start" on it. I've never had a cold start issue, just a hot start.

There was nothing in the service records about it being a 'problem child'.
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No Joy!

Here's the status....

Removed ECU's and had them checked. The one with the writing on it had a few challenges reading, etc, but was deemed acceptable.

I put them back in the car in original positions...... no start, immediately crank-stop-crank-stop, etc

We then swapped sides with the ECU's...... no start, immediately crank-stop-crank-stop, etc.

After some choice words (in Italian of course), I pulled a couple of pending codes:

P1538
P1199

In the Modena manual for codes the 1199 states "Altitude factor too low", and 1538 states nothing.

Are we to the point of thinking bad ECU? Could the immobilizer be involved?

 

After removing the ECU's again, a closer inspection of the ECU that had obviously been removed in the past showed a pin that was bent.

I have another ECU coming to replace this one. We will clone the software from the old and put it on the new.

I like puzzles, but enough is enough!
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Did you fix that pin and try again?

 

Not yet. I need some small pliers to get in there. Plus, there is no way this has been bent for a long time. There has to be a problem with the ECU itself.


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Wow! Good find man.