gtr vs elise

No doubt, our lotus guys are damn fast, one friend in particular who has a hight tuned exige,thing is insanely fast. He trailers it though.

What I got from Boxers post was he wants a street car he can daily and track and for that, atleast IMO there is NO better car than a Porsche.

Those 211's look like a blast, would love to drive one, the Cup exige;s also really appeal to me.

 

Yeah, that's BS, not sure who gave you that $'#, are you thinking perhaps of Cup cars? I speak from experience, after tracking the hell out of my 991 GT3. There are certainly less expensive cars to track and you're right the Lotus is one of those.

Plenty of guys in my neck of the woods track the living hell out of their 997 GT3's, not RS's(just one guy)

I think for the money, besides a miata, the lotus or a lower cayman is tough to beat for street cars.

And GT4's can be easily gotten, they are constantly on sale used, don't buy into the nonsense of how hard they are to get.

I was told the same thing regarding the 991 GT3, yet I walked into a show room and bought a brand new one.

 

A number of people on this site and rennlist have added up the cost in tires pads etc to run their Gt3 on track, I hear 1.5 to 2k per day, makes sense, how long do tires last, pads, put away money for disks oil brake fluids etc etc, and a lot of stuff has to be done at a dealer. Even an elise is $400 per day.

Simple math for an elise, $1500 tires last 3-4 days or put another way 12-16 heat cycles. Oil every 3-4 days, great oil is $100 for an elise. Pads last what 15-20 days and are $400 a set for the pagid Rs14's. Throw in a couple of filters, castrol srf per season.
New front rotors every 4 years. Shock rebuilds maybe 4-5 years. Hell maybe its $500 per day.

I guess it all depends on how you drive, the tracks you run and how many days you do.

Love the 997 Gt3, those are what 120-140K now used, and used you know there is sorting to be done.

What price for a cayman GT4?

I like to start if possible with a new car, run it in myself, that way i know everthing its been through and there are no defered items.

Dont need a street car at all, have a truck and trailer to tow. I even tow the elise when going to the track, like to get it all setup at home with the track wheels tires shock settings etc.Have the elise Boxer and M3 for street, so no need for another street car.

Which begs the question why not a pure track car then. Purpose built track cars imo are maintanance intensive, tend to vibrate and sound like crap, and there is always a fatser car. Really looking for turnkey. BTW the track moded previous gen caymans never seemed that fast compared to even a na elise.

Maybe Ill wait till next year, a Gt4 with proper Gt3 motor would be the dream car, the new z28 thats comming if its NA could be intresting but its still big and heavy, and if they intercool the exige, that would be the pick.

Plastique, thought of a 311, but after running single seaters really dotn want an open car. Course a 311 with roof, but dont see it out anytime soon.

have a lift at home to.

All of which brings me back to an exige, or a GT4. If i new I could geta new GT4 from porche next year woudl probably wait to see whats doable next year. But my guess is it will be the same three ringed circus.

 

Have a track prepped Cayman S with 3.8 motor. Pulled on other cars in the twisties but always lost out to HP. Putting on headers with a new tune, should be putting out 400+ and will see. Wife tracks a Noble which has been retuned, around 500 HP and 2500 lbs. Reeled in a 700 hp GTR up to 140 mph at VIR on back straight after "oak tree". Handles better than the Cayman.

 

Youer car should perform similar to a GT4, same motor and I assume track prepped means sorted suspension, springs shocks etc..

400hp in a 3200lbs car compared to 195 hp in 2000lbs(wet) elise, or 360 hp 300ftlbs in a sub 2500lbs(wet) exige.

One sure fire way to beat a cayman on a sub 2 mile track with a na elsie is to run slicks, there is just so much speed through the bends nothign else(short of wings and slicks radical) can really cope.

Noble is extreme, question is how to handle all that turbo boost comming out of a corner, on boost the noble will probably reel in most cars. Sounds like the perfect wife.

 

The numbers are 100% correct. In my 991 GT3 I go through a set of Trofeo R or PS Cup 2 ($2200-2500 a set) in one weekend easily and 4 corners of brakes are about $800 for pads alone that are 50% used in that time. Add fuel, a reserve for rotors and my estimate of GT3 running time is $750-1000 per hour. Easy $3k a weekend.

My best overall track car ever is my Turbo Miata. More like $200 an hour to run and pretty quick although can't get close to GT3 or ACR if the driver is competent. Unless it rains and then it's on!

A close second is my SRF3. It will turn GT3 lap times but is not super cheap to run and maybe $400-500 an hour. But it has the added bonus of being a race car with big fields if you want to step up. Down side is not all DE organizations allow it.

 

I think your numbers are pretty close on what I spent on track weekends with the Elise/Exige - tires were around $1250 (yoko's more than Hoosiers). Of course we were running at least 2-3 sets per double race weekends. Pagid blacks as you said were about $4-500 and would last a season.
We ran 7-8 race weekends per year.
Of course, the unpredictable extraneous failures would always happen - blowing the synchros of 2nd gear, blowing up a motor (can replace the 2zz for $3500 used....cheap!!!!), contact in a race - fiberglass repair, etc. etc.

Unfortunately, no production car or even a track car seems turnkey from what I've run. Always seemed to need to upgrade shocks or fuel pumps, radiators, cooling systems etc etc.
There are 2 Exige V6's running this year in LotusCup and even those have needed track improvements.

What would be interesting would be to compare the GT4 vs Exige V6 running costs, as both are around $110k to buy at the moment.
Advantage of GT4 would be of course it is streetable. I just wonder how many upgrades are needed to make it a true track weapon.
If the Exige V6 were made street legal, one would be in my garage right now - we've all complained to Lotus about this, crying shame.


Sent from my 16M

 

You are hunting for a Unicorn. ALL cars driven hard on track, in my experience, need a lot of care and feeding. The faster they go, the more care and feeding. As mentioned above, my Turbo Miata is my lowest maintenance vehicle, about on pace with an Elise, but not as fast as GT3, GT4, ACR, and others. And it took me about 2 years of development work to get the Turbo Miata to work right.

If you already have a truck & trailer, I would stay away from street cars. Heavy, PITA to work on due to all the cosmetic panels hiding stuff you need to get to, A?C by definition compromises cooling. My ACR-E is amazing - fastest street car on track, but costs $$$ for consumables. Brakes, cooling and all else are flawless. An excellent choice but figure $1K an hour to run.

If you go with a dedicated track car, there are tons of options out there. a 996 Cup with crap scrub slicks will be faster than 95% of everything and they can probably run on the order of $500/hour if you don't care about max tire grip and take care of the engine to get 100 hours between rebuilds and DIY most everything.

I personally prefer much lighter cars if they are track only, and I'd look hard at Radical, Ariel, Factory 5, and I personally have the new Elemental RP1 on my radar. I saw it at Goodwood and they say they are bringing it to the US.

If you just want to browse all the amazing things we don't have here, go to www.racecarsdirect.com. Very eye opening if you are adventurous enough to get something. I got my SR8 that way.

 

I would get 20'ish heat cycles out of MP cup 2's(3-4 30 min sessions per day), which meant 5-6 days ATLEAST before needing new ones. I know Trofeo's are more $$ and ware faster than the cups. So cups would last me THREE weekends at around 2K a pop. Type of track will also change ware rate, perhaps mine was not as hard on tires as yours, as high level cup drivers, were getting this cycle range on the cup2 tires on their non cup/street cars. So I know its not that I am easy on tires!

I have to look at my old calculations, but my hourly $$ run rate was not that high. I did do much of my own work though, oil changes ect. Car did drink alot of oil.

Regardless, good feedback, I guess there is some big variances between tracks.

 

I agree, this would be a very interesting comparison. I've seen a few Gt4's running and they are fast for sure but I never had a chance to speak with the owners on what mods if any they we're doing to make it handles the wear/tear of tracking.

 

Flash, you track your car?

 

My 991 GT3 came with the Dunlops. Fronts corded in 4 sessions. Rears got 8. Trofeo R wear similarly, but fortunately I've only used mine ar CoTA, which is easier on tires. But I'd never get 20 cycles out of any of the options

 

On the elise I run yoko 005 slicks in the "hard" 004 compound. The softs 001 grip maybe 10% better for a few runs but dont last at all, and are doen after a day, whereas the hards are good for 4 days. That means 4-5 30-40 minute sesions per day.

My experince with r compound tires 048s was that they were the same price as slicks, and lasted half as long and went off the boil pretty quick, but yes you can street drive them. Grp was decent but not the same as the hard 005's.

Got a trailer afew years back, its just much easier to tow to the track, you can setup car in your own workshop the day before, bring tools tires wets etc, and its much more comfy driving a truck home at the end of along day, even towing. Comapred to being in a buzy car you just spent the day on track in driving home on crappy roads full of cops a truck is a no brainer. I leased a new tundra crecab for 15k for 3 years. Never had a truck before and its awesome to have even when not towing.

Yes tracks have a huge effect on tires. Monticello like to eat fronts whereas LRP seems to like the left rear. The repaved Glenn is really even all around. At monticellow erun 40 min session up to 5x per day. The Glenn or LRP 30 mins 4x per day.

The advantge of an exige over a GT4. Well the exige can be had under 100k now new and you dont have to degrade yourself at a porche dealer or spend for all the necessary track bits, so the price delta is probably 20-25K.

The exige comes out the box with a full cage, proper track seats, harneses fire system, bafflled sump and catch can. The rotors unlike an elise are good to go, so it seems all that is needed is pads and fluids. Most consumable bits can be had from sector 111 pretty reasonably. Kept stock it should be mechanicaly robust.

Course its not street legal and will out depreciate a porche, but will cost less to run, its also 600lbs lighter than a Gt4, so less tires and other consumables.

The GT4, well I know tracked cars sell at a discount, but I bet 5 years from now it will have a lot more residual than the lotus.

On the other hand for 10K on a exige one can do a Komotec intercooler upgrade and add 100hp, which appears to be solid as its the same setup the 311 has.

Yeah Keith I am looking for the unicorn, but in 4-5k track miles my elise has just stared on its 2nd set of front rotors and is on its 4th set of pads, plus regular fluids. So maybe an exige is not much worse.

I talked myself into the lotus again

 

How do i get in touch with someone running one of these exige V6's would be really interested in what they have had to do to the car and what they think?

 

You could first contact Robbie who runs LotusCupUSA. He's always looking for new participants as well. But he could put you in touch with the Exige V6 owners.
[email protected]


Sent from my 16M

 

Nice to see all the other Lotus guys here.
Had a Elise NA (sold this May) and still have a Exige S240. The S240 feels like a completely different animal and just hard to replicate that feel in any other car. To me, the S240 feels like the perfect package car and just a blast. As for the Elise, I would actually drive it daily as much as possible during spring/summer/fall. Not the most comfortable but great driver car and easier to daily than Exige (visibility). Elise NA had Nitron Shocks, baffled oil pan, upgraded toe links, upgraded radiator, lotus stage 2 exhaust, sport package..etc and it was truly a great car.

 

I've had my 05 Elise since new and it's a keeper. Turbocharged sod has some mid range torque. Sort of a "F20"

 

So hard getting into other cars after the Lotus as they feel like "pigs" haha

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Lcekpaivs


This video pretty much sums up the differences between an R35 GTR and a NA Elise/Exige. These are all professional drivers. Some might not be as proficient in a LHD car as they are in a RHD car.


This is a modestly tuned R35 vs a highly tuned NA Exige. The Exige gets killed by almost everything on the straight away. The Exige's best attribute is obviously cornering and carrying speed. R35 does everything a bit too easily.

Now. A stock Elise is far off in performance than this featured Exige. It will be left in the dust. This Exige has a built motor with 12.5:1 pistons, headers, exhaust doing about 220 rwhp. The transmission is short geared for quick revs. Carbon fiber front clam, rear clam, doors, and top. Carbon fiber wheels. 2 piece rotors all around. Quantum and Ikeya Formula suspension bits. Upgraded bushings... etc. It will take alot for a stock NA Elise to get to this level and even then.. you saw how it did against a moderately tuned GTR.

BUT.... if you're competing in a small track with short straightaways like Tsukuba Circuit, this NA Exige is a 58-59 sec car. Most Ferraris don't even come close to breaking the 1 min mark. Only high tuned R35's get in the sub 1 min level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e1RlftJalI

 

Meanwhile a 350 whp supercharged exige is no big deal. A lotus 311 will kill practicaly everything and an exige V6 is different car still. We even have the Henssey, What they all have in common is an elise tub, but they are not the same car.

I doubt anything in regular production street legal from a factory will stay with a 311, but then thats a car with no windsheild let alone roof.

Point is there is a world of potential in the elige tub, it really depends on which one you are talking about. Exige v6 cup seems to be in 997.2 rs performance range, at least up to 150mph. Komotec will take you from 355 to 460hp.

There is also the question of whats going to be the most fun to drive on track, how many laps it will last, the effect of weight on brakes and tires, on track there is always a more dediacted faster car. Also what the level of the driver or is a acr way beyond them. Somewhere is a sweetspot.

Meanwhile what can you tell us about the 220whp motor in the NA elsie, seems awesome, whats the spec?

 

My Exige, but not the Elise.

It's been awhile. I used to run it at Streets of Willow.
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I don't know much about the motor other than it having 12.5:1 compression pistons running on 100 Octane. Most likely head work was done. No ITB's, just a standard intake system. Not much else that can be done. TiRacing/Outerplus Japan focuses more on weight reduction, suspension, and balance than hp, which is an inspiration for my setup on my 06 NA Exige. As a matter of fact, the actual rear wing of that car ... they sold it to me and I carried it on a plane back from Japan .
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I do remember them telling me their Supercharged setup (i believe it was the stock supercharger) is a faster car on some tracks (56-57 secs on Tsukuba Circuit) and in short runs as they experience lots of heat soak. To the point where on the long back straight of Motegi Speedway, the supercharged Exige clocked the same speed as the NA Exige. At the time, they were running pull fans on the intercooler. No water cooled setup, which is what I think most people are doing.

 

my friend in the 991 GT3, me in the Exige cup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkM1xOdUTKY





Numbers: Exige $500 day
My old 997.2: $1200 day.

Cheers,

Ron