The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

That's a big call and suggests all sorts of nefarious intent. Further, who would have done it, David Piper, John Hajduk or Sal Barone?

 

I agree that Ferrari would never have "fixed" the chassis in this manner, however, I seriously doubt that anybody would have "marked" it with this scar either. As I have stated, it has been a great stretch of the imagination to suggest that the damage on the left side of 0003 was from the Targa. Only the sheer desire for this car to be the actual 0846 has allowed ourselves to be swayed in this direction.

If anyone wanted to "alter" the chassis to simulate known crash damage, they would have most likely chosen an area of the chassis that was easier to link with known damage history. After all, left side chassis damage for a light right side shunt is a tough sell. Now charred or replaced tubes on the right side, or banged up right rear suspension would have been an easier sell.

I think the damage was simply an anomaly that happened in Piper's care, that had an enormous amount of wishful thinking applied to it, to link the chassis with 0846

 

Apologies for the blurred pictures but detail can be seen. Please compare the welds in the corners of the intersection of the tubes where I've arrowed in red and the brackets I've arrowed in yellow. Are these pictures of the exact same chassis and chassis A and B one and the same? Please just look at the chassis tubes/brackets, not the ancillaries. I'd like to know what you guys think.
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Agree.

Note according to Barchetta.cc they had nearly a month between the Targa Florio event (14/05/1967) and Le Mans (10/06/1967) ... when you think about it removing and replacing the tube would be quicker than trying to sleeve or whatever the existing tube.
Pete

 

The only thing I can make out is the steering rack mount is narrower on chassis A than B.
Pete

 

car returned on 16th of May at the factory. They had 14-15 working days.
Car was transported to Le Mans on 5th or 6th June.

 

At the very best it was quite a tenuous link anyway, and thats if all the other claims in the pdf had stacked up.

As it is with all those being debunked now one by one, including the latest bulkhead pics, it's now just simply a red herring.

 

I just looked at the wikipedia page. Wow, that's ... interesting.

The repeated discussion of "legal proceedings" as a basis for calling the car 0846 is of particular interest to me. Does anyone have docket numbers or copies of the pleadings filed in these "legal proceedings?" Was there an opposing party? Did any opposing party even file an appearance or "defense" to any claims made by JG?

I would love to see the files on these "proceedings...."

 

Ok... I know this is a bit of a waste of a post.... Having been involved in the threat for years... and more to the point actively in the last few weeks... I must say... Im proud of the guys that are on here.

Seriously we had name calling and all sorts of stuff a few weeks ago... and now its all pretty adult conversation and everyone putting their heads together to try to figure out this puzzle.

We even have two guys debating the physics of the crash... even they are doing a great job explaining there theories without getting childish. Also they each make clear points.

So bravo to all of those checking and reading and contributing for the last 8k posts LOL.

MuiraSV... if you are ever in Scottsdale AZ...Id buy you a beer (not that I drink but i guess this is what adults do... LOL). What you have done and continue to drag up is amazing. I hope you haven't given up your day job for this, but wouldn't be surprised if you have given the amount of time and effort.

Whats cool is this really is a community. No one has called Jim an ****** or outright liar. Everyone is keeping it pretty PC and non accusatory. People have put their heads together collectively to find out the answer to the riddle that is Jims car.


I know if this were on Viper Alley Jim G would have been the internet equivalent of crucified, burned at the stake, pee'd on ashes and then turned into a running joke. Its pretty nice to see a mature part of the internet.

 

Does anyone have a clear picture or pictures of the tubes, suspension and suspension mountings of the front of the chassis of Glickenhaus DP0003 from any angle? If so please could you post them here or email them in confidence to [email protected]. Thanks in advance for your help.
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I made the comment not so much to say that's what actually happened here, but to point out how implausible the stories have gotten that 0003 is in fact 0846. If people want to make room for one far fetched explanation then everything should considered a possibility.

 

Hello Joe,

I am sorry if you understood my tone to be accusatory. If you did, I can assure you it was not meant to be.

I agree that almost all of the theories offered for the chassis have been implausible. But when people are desperately looking for conclusive evidence, they gravitate to all of the "Possibilities." When you add up enough implausible possibilities, you eventually build enough "evidence" to validate a solid case to those looking for confirmation. Just look at the OJ Case.

In this saga, I think Steve's recent photos have shed some much needed clarification that now allows us to question all of those "possibilities." But until those pictures were shared and investigated by all of us, this community might not have been interested in refuting any of the theories that made this car the wonderful 0846. I think that only after seeing this irrefutable evidence, can we start to accept that those far fetched explanations were just far fetched after all.

 

Especially the part where it cant be challenged after the 2 year mark. I bet it was a long 2 years!

 

You will see in the first picture that the rear engine mounting bolt holes on the P4 engine are above the bell housing. On Mr Glickenhaus's engine the bolt holes are lower down, just as they are on the 312 F1 36V engine, proving that's what it is and not a P4 engine. This of course is additional proof that the engine in DP0003 is 312 F1 to that already posted.
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Yes I think legally in New York the car is now #0846 but .......... we know for a fact that at least the engine block and it's mountings are wrong. If it was my car, and I had the funds, I'd purchase/make a correct block and correct the engine mounts and rear bulkhead. I'd also add another chassis tag saying "maybe" alongside the 0846 one ... just my opinion.
Pete

 

Thank you for your explanation. I appreciate very much the time you took to write it and all your other excellent contributions. I don't know how much of the thread you've read, but when I actually looked at these mountings for the first time, I knew they weren't Ing. Forghieri's or Ferrari's work.

 

Thanks Steve,

I've actually been here from the beginning. The mounts are definitely not factory work.

 

Is Jims engine "matching numbers" if so... this would seem a bit dubious and completely misleading or fabrication. However, I can't remember if it is "matching" and I am not going to dig through everything to find out after my extremely long day.

 

The engine (or block) is not #0846's original engine. My understanding is that engine is in David Piper's #0900.

Jim believes the heads and gearbox have Le Man's stampings so were in #0846 (gearbox in 1966 not 67), but what heads does #0900 now have then?

Also when DP003 was advertised many years ago the engine was described as a 3 litre F1 unit which has been confirmed by block height and now bellhousing attachment details. Jim has confirmed that when he purchased the car the engine was 3 litres. You can find that in this thread or the pdf.
Pete

 

Steve, the obvious question is now: what is the gearbox then? Unless an adapter plate is used it cannot be a 593 as used by a P4 as the bolt holes would not line up.

Did 312 F1's also use a 593 with a different casing? According to the pdf the casing has extra fins ... I'm confused.
Pete

 

Piper's P4 0900 has a tipo 247 Can Am 350 4.2 engine. The engine in the auction description of DP0003 (DP3) is a 312 F1 24 valve engine with a Weber carburettor conversion. The engine in the car now, and the engine Jim bought it with, is a 312 F1 36 valve Fuel Injection engine which looks similar to a P4 engine, (and Can Am 350).

 

Thanks for clarifying the details Steve, and yes #0900's engine came from spares for #0858 I believe. My mistake. I wonder if the current DP003 engine is the 312 F1 24 valve engine's block with P4 heads? I say this because of the Le Mans stampings on the heads.

BTW confirmation that the engine is now 4 litres by Jim:

Pete

 

What I was getting at was whether there was ever any real adversary process involved. It's pretty easy to get whatever result you want if you're the only party who shows up for the hearing.

It's too bad there's no one with the necessary combination of balls, funds, and legal standing to challenge the status of this car legally, in a full adversary process, with complete discovery and expert analysis. That would be a fun case to watch or take part in! But talk about expensive....

 

Well, on the legal matter my understanding has always be that from Ferrari's point of view, the situation is very clear: the number has been crossed from their registry, so the car, whatever it is, cannot be called #0846 anymore? That's what we discussed a few pages back, and that was Mauro Forghieri's position also.

Rgds

 

The 'Estoppel' trick has nothing to do with the car's real identity and the number's elimination in Ferrari's registry, but with Common Law and the US VIN ... Ferrari probably did just not raise any formal objection in the US against the applicant's identity claim and the car's registration as '0846' in NY (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquiescence)