The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

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Hi Steve,
I believe it is a quick coupling female fitting on the chassis tube in which flows the water (or another coolant fluid) from radiator to engine's water pump. It is common use on recent racing cars to pre-heat the coolant (!) prior to the start, thus preventing damage to the engine. I believe it is a feature never used on racing Ferraris during the 60s or even the 70s. I saw it in some 70s F1s (Tyrrells and McLarens) but never in a racing Ferrari of that era.
Best,
Gab

 

Thanks, Gab,

David talks about doing something like this in one of the P4 Talacrest videos. See here from about 5 mins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mfEBUq3qsU

 

Reasonable? DP0003 was built around 1974 from David Piper with a mix of original Ferrari parts. Piper is the car’s builder and the car is subsequently no Ferrari. Nonetheless, DP0003 is still disputed in this section and let’s see and wait how – eventually – Ferrari will “offer” the owner “a method of assessing the originality” of his car. However, any ‘official assessment’ and ‘renumbering’ as 0846 would not provide a 1967 number but a new one of 2016 and does not change the slightest on the fact, that the car remains a replica. But everything is possible indeed. 5899 has a non Ferrari replica chassis and its Classiche certificate confirms a wrong frame-builder and a wrong building date of the frame. 6045 is a works replica built in 2012/3 (new frame and body) and its Classiche-certificate contains an untrue and falsified date of production.

 

Read the pages on 5899 in this book please: Ferrari Fever, eau rouge publishing. And the story on Mr David Piper and the LM...

 

This is Mr. Massini's comment on 5899 from Sept. 24, 1986:

" ... David Piper in England had built at least two or eventually three brand new chassis for 250 LMs during 1980-81. One of these new chassis frames was used for the reconstruction of 250 LM S/N 5899 which was then owned by Mr. Eric Stewart in Great Britain. The rebuild was done by Rosso Limited/Victor Norman in England, using a few original parts. They also built a complete new body for LM 5899 but its shape is wrong since the roof section is too flat and the front end not correct like the original Scaglietti nose. In fact, one could say that LM 5899 is a replica, since there were nearly no original parts left to build the new car. ... ". Mr. Piper did no change his business.

 

the original chassis was available, Stewart had it, heavily modified yes but could be restored with new tubes. But yes it is/was a bitsa. But there are many more classics out there with a Ferrari certificate but owners do not know their car is a bitsa or even....reproduction. But who cares as long as the owner is happy with it and experts make a little money on them and brokers a few pennies..

 

Wrong thread guys!!

This thread is for the #0846 debate only.
Pete

 

If that's a vertical tube we can see in the front section of DP0003, it's not present on a genuine P3 or P4 chassis.
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I will certainly stay positive and amused about any miraculous conversion from a replica to an original and its subsequent certification as a genuine car. We already learnt wonderful stories and fairy tales about ‘5899’ and ‘6045' (as well as others). Now let's patiently wait that – eventually - Classiche will provide one more about ‘0846’ …

 

Steve, #0854 appears to have something in that same location, but possibly not straight and as large in size.

Have a look at Jim's #0854 thread.
Pete

 

I was speaking to Gablet about it and he noticed that P4 0858 has the vertical tube, but narrower in width. Couldn't see it on 0854 though. Will have to have another look.

 

0854 does not have the vertical tube I am referring to. See pics.
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....whereas P4 chassis 0858 does have the vertical tube as Gablet sent me this pic earlier. This further shows that DP0003 has actually been built to P4 plans, not P3 as Mr Glickenhaus states.
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I believe that vertical tube was added at the factory later along with the suspension mounts as in the pic below. In other words Vacarri made the chassis and then the factory added these P4 details on the chassis. That P4 chassis in the pic below hasn't had the vertical tube in the front fitted yet. This is another thing that shows Piper chassis DP0003 is built to P4 plans not P3. That it's thicker than on a real P4 is more evidence it's a replica
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More pics that Gablet sent me of 0858's P4 chassis where you can see the vertical (ish) tube, not present on 0854.
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I'm confused myself now. The tube we have seen on 0858 arrowed in red is the one in the pedal box area seen in the pic below but I thought it terminated where the yellow arrow points in the pic as that is where the tube seems to terminate on DP0003. And there is actually a narrow vertical tube on 0854 which is what Pete may have been referring to. See the red arrow on the 0854 pic. Are these pictures playing tricks on my brain???? Hmmm.
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I don't think Jim certified the car through Classiche (or directly Ferrari, for that matter), he has always bashed them and has clearly said that in his lifetime none of his cars will ever go through the process... Though there are certain factors that can make people change

 

Yes that is the one I was referring to.

I've tried to find a different angle photo of DP0003's chassis to see that "vertical" tube better but failed ...
Pete

 

Pic of DP0003 from the right side front.
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It does not add up at all

Now who made the frames? And is Mr P completely honest?

0003: 1974 CAR
0900 /DP02: 1979 CAR

Manicardi e Mesuri lol
Sylvano Cantelli....

"we can make a new chassis" (EF) who would have all moulds for these frames and the knowlegde? Vaccari!
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Yes, very interesting questions!

The scanned article where you highlighted "loan of copies" also says Piper asked for permission to make "AN original-style 330 P4 chassis.." - "an" means singular, one. Why did Piper have 3 made? That rather violates the terms of his request and approval from Ferrari... hardly a gentleman's agreement when one side breaks the terms!

Similarly, the scan from the Motorsport Magazine page 80 Feb 2009 story quotes Piper as saying "the Old Man gave me chassis number 0900" - again, ONE chassis number, not 3, but not documented in writing anywhere, and controversial since Ferrari itself used 0900 on a car from it's own facilities. The article in conjunction with the other posted material makes it seem as if the chassis number 0900 was intended for the ONE replica car, which elsewhere in the quoted material seems to be 0003.

It does seem that quite a bit of sleight of hand was going on to get permission to build ONE car to use his genuine spare P4 suspension, engine, gearbox parts, get ONE Ferrari-approved chassis number 0900, then end up with THREE replica cars manufactured.

 

I see the point about how many replica chassis were made. What I don't see in any of these papers is something claiming DP0003 is in fact 0846, nor do I see anything indicating any parts of 0846 were used to construct DP0003. The only "donor" parts referenced are from 0860 and possibly spares from Piper's own 0836.

 

more about Mr Piper and what he did.
And he can not remember who made the 0003 frame...but that was made in same period as 0900/DP02 or even earlier......or was not even made by SAME frame builder but already finished when he got it in 1974....

 

Interesting but irrelevant to this debate, the photos in the last month or so, both rear and front show that the chassis of 003 is nothing like the period shots of 0846 and such differences have nothing to do with the chassis evolving over time either, they are fundamentally different.